Vermont's Gov. Phil Scott and his administration are working to understand the local ramifications of new executive actions that could intensify President Trump's immigration crackdown. In an interview on Vermont Edition Monday, the five-term Republican governor also called on President Trump to expand the country's work visa program.
"It's far past time," he said. "We kicked the can down the road long enough, and somebody has to be the adult here and step up."
On Monday the White House said President Trump is expected to sign an executive order aimed at identifying sanctuary cities and states — places where local authorities choose not to cooperate with federal immigration efforts.
Late last week, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy wrote in a letter that states could lose federal funding if they refuse to cooperate with the White House's interpretation of federal immigration law. About 60% of Vermont's current transportation funding comes from the federal government.
Meanwhile, Vermont has been the center of a handful of high-profile detentions by federal Immigration authorities. Upper Valley resident Mohsen Mahdawi, a student at Columbia University, was detained ahead of a naturalization interview in Colchester earlier this month. Turkish doctoral student Rümeysa Öztürk was arrested in Massachusetts in late March, detained in Vermont and is now in Louisiana, though a federal judge has ordered her to be moved back to Vermont. Eight migrant farmworkers were arrested by U.S. Customs and Border Protection at a Franklin County dairy farm last week.
Some Vermont lawmakers have called for the termination of a memorandum that allows federal immigration authorities to lodge detainees in state prisons.
“I think it would be a mistake to end it,” Scott said. “Mr. Mahdawi said himself he was happy to be in Vermont. They treat him well. We have a couple of federal judges that have common sense and are in the middle of the road. From my perspective, to end it just because we don’t like it — where are they going to go?"
The following transcript has been edited for length and clarity. This episode of Vermont Edition also included a conversation with Vermont Public and VTDigger reporter Carly Berlin about housing legislation.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, Governor, we're so glad to have you with us today, and I want to start by asking you about some of the statements that a number of Vermont's other top elected officials have been making in the past few months about the Trump administration. I mean, Sen. Bernie Sanders has been barnstorming with his Fight Oligarchy tour. Lieutenant Gov. John Rogers spoke at the Hands Off rally in Montpelier earlier this month. And I've read all of your statements in response to federal news of the day, and you seem generally to have taken a more measured approach and have not spoken at any big protests or rallies. Why not?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, I think I've taken the same approach that many Democrat governors have taken across the country, trying to focus on the issues that affect us the most on a day-to-day basis, and let the congressional delegation handle the federal issues. And I understand that some people want you to do something, but, but I don't think we can control the rhetoric in D.C. In fact, I think when we react to that, it actually strengthens the president's position. That's what he wants. I think it's a strategy, and we fall into the trap time and time again. So—
Mikaela Lefrak: Well it's not simply rhetoric, it's action.
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, what— again, we have to wait for whatever the action is he takes against us here in the state, and react to that. And I, I think we have been doing that, but, but for all of us to fall into that trap, I think, is, would be unfortunate and it takes away from all the problems that exist here in Vermont today, that we're not doing because we're focusing on the rhetoric that he, he wants to stir up, and I don't believe we can live in chaos for the next three and a half years. They just have too much to do, too much to accomplish right here in Vermont.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, let's talk about some of the actions that have affected Vermonters already, or the state at large — particularly around immigration. I mean, we've been at the center of a handful of high-profile detentions by federal immigration authorities. Now, I mean, there is Rümeysa Öztürk, the Tufts University student who was taken into custody at the end of March, who was briefly held in Vermont and is now in Louisiana. There is also the case of the Upper Valley resident, Mohsen Mahdawi, who was taken into custody a couple weeks ago. After Rümeysa Öztürk was taken into custody, you said that we should be ashamed that these types of unlawful detentions are happening. Is there anything else that your administration can do to stop more of these types of detentions from occurring in Vermont or from people being brought here?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, a couple of things. It's, it really is the how: How they've been taken into custody I think is unfortunate. I think law enforcement or immigration officials with masks on, it feels to me like we're a third world country, and, and I think we should be better than that. We should be more professional and, and if there's an issue, if there's evidence that these individuals are a threat to the security of our nation or Vermont, then we should make this information known almost immediately, not have to wait. In this situation and some of those situations, it feels as though, from my perspective, that we’re mad at somebody for them exercising their, their individual right here in this country, freedom of speech, something that we, we all should rally behind and if, if that's the case, if we're just mad at what they say, that's not a good enough reason, if there is real evidence and something to justify their detainment, then again, we should, we should— we should know what that is, and if there isn't, they should release them.
Mikaela Lefrak: We received an email from a listener named Mary urging you to end Vermont's agreement with federal immigration authorities. This agreement allows the feds to hold immigration detainees in Vermont prisons, and there's been a push by top Democrats in Vermont’s Senate to end this memorandum of understanding. Mary writes, “ICE doesn't belong in Vermont, and its innocent captives don't belong in Vermont prisons.” Do you think Vermont should continue to uphold this memorandum of understanding with federal immigration authorities?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, a couple of things on the MOU: There's a difference between ICE and the Border Patrol and some of that, so we have to make sure that we're talking about the right thing here. In terms of this, I know what they want, and we do have this MOU that either side, could, either party, could, could pull it back and we have to give 120 days notice in order to do that. We could, we could do that. But again, the MOU expires sometime in August, so that doesn't make any sense from my perspective, but we should just wait till the end and not renew it.
Mikaela Lefrak: You think we should not renew it?
Gov. Phil Scott: No, I didn't say that. I said, rather than give them notice at this point, then we should just not renew it. It makes no sense, because it's, it's less than 120 days away before the end of the date when it has to be renewed in the MOU has to be signed again. I think it's a mistake. It would be a mistake if we could, if we had the power to end it tomorrow, I think it would be a mistake to do that. I think Mr. Mahdawi has said himself that he is happy to be here in Vermont. He's glad to be here in Vermont. He's going to get a fair shake. They treat him well there, he is allowed visitors, and we have a federal judge here that I think are — a couple of federal judges that have common sense and our middle of the road, and just want to get a fair trial. And I'm not sure you get that everywhere, so I think you would — it's counterintuitive, from my perspective, to end it just because we don't like it, where are they going to go then? They're going to be taken to another facility in another part of the country and I think that we're doing our part here in treating people well.
Mikaela Lefrak: So when that current memorandum, when it ends in August, do you believe it should be renewed?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well at this point, we should— we'll discuss it. We have some time between now and then. I think things will be more clear by then and I, and again, there's some details within that agreement that that we should talk about, but, but to end it at this point — and again, we can't — but if we could, I think would be a mistake.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, while we're talking about immigration, I would like to ask you about the farm workers who were detained by U.S. Customs and Border Patrol earlier this month. Last week in a statement, you said that you are, quote, “continuing to collect information to better understand the circumstances and facts around that detainment.” Has your office learned anything in the past week that sheds light on why exactly that raid occurred in Franklin County?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, I mentioned this at my press briefing, and it looks like this is it, it happened just as I had suspected someone — someone called in to Border Patrol to acknowledge that they, they thought that two people were crossing the border, had backpacks and so forth, and were and were walking through the woods. Border Patrol went to investigate. When they investigated, they found two individuals walking out of the woods, and at that point they went to engage them, to talk with them, and, and one of them ran, and those are the two farm workers. And I understand why, with all the apprehension in terms of everything that's happening in the world today, they were scared. Had they not ran, things might have ended differently, but they did. One of them did and a chase ensued and they and they led them to others on the farm that were here as well, that were undocumented. So, border patrol had no choice at that point then to take action. They can't just ignore when they see something that that isn't, that isn't legal. They had no choice but to do what they did. I don't believe that it was an organized raid. I think was just an unfortunate situation that got out of control, respond— Border Patrol responding to a call. And I have long been clear: Migrant workers are an essential part of our communities, and their friends, their neighbors and, and they're part of the community, the economy and workforce, so —
Mikaela Lefrak: Even those who are undocumented?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've known they've been here for, for decades. And you know, it's unfortunate because Congress and Congresses that have been led by both Democrats and Republicans over the last couple of decades, have failed to act, and presidents, same, same there, Democrats and Republicans alike. It's just far past, way past time, that we looked for ways for reform in our immigration policy that allows for at least work visas, extended expansion of the work visas, because we know we need them. They want to be here and, and it's happening, not just in Vermont, in every state, red and blue states alike. So, I think everyone has an interest in in progressing, but somebody has to take the first step. And there was it was almost a deal on the table in the last Congress, and President Trump, before he was elected, I think scuttled that because it didn't work for his political message during the campaign. But the campaign's over. He was elected, and now he should take some leadership and, and do something to expand this. And there are a number, again, Republican governors who have asked for this and have worked on it in the past, and will continue members of Congress, Republicans in Congress. Marco Rubio in 2013, he was part of the Gang of Eight that had had a plan together, that had bipartisan support, but it never made it across the finish line, so, because it didn't work for whoever. And it's, it's, it's far past time. We kicked the can down the road long enough, and somebody, somebody has to be the adult here and step up.
Mikaela Lefrak: Let's go right to Robert in Burlington. Robert, you're on the air. Go ahead. Robert, are you with us? I will go back to Robert once we have him on. We did receive a call from a listener named Tim who asked not to be on air, but did want to know, Governor, about your thoughts on U.S.-Canada relations right now. Tim thinks that you should write a statement of support for Canada. We also got a similar note from Richard in Montpelier, who wants to know if you think the current level of scrutiny of Canadians at the border is warranted. What are your thoughts there?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, again, they're our largest creating partner. We — and it goes beyond that. They're part of, of who we are here in Vermont, a lot of families are connected, and we've enjoyed a great relationship with them over the years. I still stay in contact with premiers and different provinces throughout, throughout the Northeast of Canada, and we just want to keep reassuring them that we're still here. Our feelings haven't changed. We're still friends and we talk a lot about that. But they're angry and they're hurt, and I don't blame them at all in in feeling the way they are. I think the president in particular is has treated them poorly.
Mikaela Lefrak: Do you see yourself as having— oh, excuse me, go ahead. Yeah.
Gov. Phil Scott: No, go ahead.
Mikaela Lefrak: I was just wondering if you see yourself, Governor, as having any sort of diplomatic role at a time like this. Have you been meeting with any Quebecois leaders?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, yes, I—
Mikaela Lefrak: What have those conversations been like?
Gov. Phil Scott: Oh, it, just what I said. I mean, we're just reassuring them. They're reassuring us as well, that that they, they know that this isn't our fault, but they're but they're hurt and angry and with their election today, I hope, I hope from at this point that that it's a resounding victory for one or the other, because they need to be together. They— and then we'll continue to work to make sure that they know that we're still here and we welcome them into our state and into our country.
Mikaela Lefrak: You've convened a task force to study the effects of the tariffs on Vermont. What are your takeaways so far from that task force findings?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, again, it depends on which day, and that was prior to the problem. The president is erratic and, and in his actions, especially when it comes to tariff. One day they're on, one day they're off, one day they're 25%, the next day to 10 and then, in the case of China, you know, over 100%, so he's using them to bludgeon his opponents and tariffs, that is. And so it creates turmoil, again, chaos and it fits — I think it's part of the strategy. I think it's a failed strategy from my perspective, but, but we'll see how it all ends up. So, as it turns out, didn't impose a lot of the tariffs that he threatened to impose and in fact, some of them were covered under the USMCA— which I thought, I gave him great credit, back about five, six years ago, when, when he sealed that deal and we had the USMCA that I thought was a fair agreement. And so my from my perspective, if you want to change our situation with Canada, just reopen the USMCA and make and bargain those changes that would have been simple without offending them.
Mikaela Lefrak: We have our listener, Robert back on the line. Robert in Burlington, can you hear us now, Robert?
Robert: Yes, I'm sorry. I thought you were going to talk about tariffs before you took calls. So Governor, I just really want to impress upon you that your nation needs you, not just your state needs you, but your nation needs you and other Republicans of national stature, because we're having an existential problem in our country. We are losing our democracy. People are being, being rendered, kidnapped and rendered and put into prisons in foreign countries without any due process. All of our, all of our allies, are going to abandon us. We're in deep trouble. We're in existential trouble. And 50 years ago, it took Republicans to confront Richard Nixon so that, so that we could be rid of him, and it's—
Mikaela Lefrak: Robert, I'm going to jump in. I'm sorry to cut you off, but I am hearing a call for stronger words of protest against the Trump administration. You're wanting that from our governor. And Gov. Scott, you said, now is not the time for that type of, of rhetoric, yes?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, yes, again, you know, I'll, I'll take action when I think it's appropriate, when I think I can make a difference. I think I've proven that over the last number of years. I'm the only Republican governor who admitted that they, they didn't vote for President Trump, in fact, voted for their opponent. So I think I've proven that when I see the opportunity and think I can make a difference, I make that point known. And, but at the same time, he was he was elected. These are things he said he was going to do. These are things that many of us warned against, and so we're going to have to work through this, the Congress, work with this administration, but the courts have to step up as well and take action, because that's the third branch of government that that oversees what we do
Mikaela Lefrak: well last week, just last week, the Trump administration sent a letter to states saying that they could lose transportation funding if they don't cooperate with federal immigration authorities. One, one example of a program that could cross the federal government in this way is the driver's privilege cards that Vermont issues to people without lawful status to drive, we’re one of 19 states and D.C. to issue these. I wonder if abiding by, by these state laws and sticking to these types of programs like these drivers privilege cards, do you see those as worth the potential loss of federal transportation dollars.
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, we're still taking a look at that to see what the ramifications are at this point. Obviously, I mean, I just have to say we, don't have a great hand to play here in Vermont. We rely heavily on federal funding. And that's, that's not good in this situation, because, because they do hold a better set of guards than we do. So we have to reflect on that in each and everything that we do, and there are going to be times that that we're going to say, you know, it's, it's worth losing the funds over the principal, and we're just going to have to tighten our belts in order to work our way through it. But, but it's just going to be a tough, tough number of years now to get through that.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, let's, let's focus on some of the issues a bit closer to home that are being debated in Montpelier right now — particularly the budget, which is in front of the Senate right now. What do you think, Governor, of where, say, the general fund base currently stands now that this budget bill has passed out of the house and being is being considered by the Senate.
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, I'm concerned about the spending pressure added in the state or the Senate budget. It looks like it spends about another 50 million over what I recommended. And given everything we've been talking about, given the federal uncertainty, I don't think we should be too reliant on the base budget, since we don't know what will happen in the future. We need to remain as flexible as possible to make sure, when we decide to take a principled approach, that we can backfill that and take care of those who are impacted, who have the greatest need. So this is going to be a bit of a juggling act over the next few years, and I just think that again, we should keep it as flexible as possible, not spend any more than we have to, and keep money in reserve when we do. But, at the same time, when we're, we're looking at the this budget, for instance, I think we need more money to be placed in some of the housing programs that we've had great success in, like VHIP, Vermont housing improvement program. It's the lowest cost and has the fastest results of any housing program that we have to date. So there's that, and mobile home programs and so forth and so, and missing middle housing programs and all kinds of things like that. So I would— we're trying to advocate with the Senate to put more money there and, and not put as much base pressure as they have on the overall budget.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, speaking of housing, let's, let's take a moment to discuss Vermont's motel housing program, which has long been a source of contention between your administration and the Democratic-controlled Legislature. I mean, you've called the program a failure in the past for its high cost to the state and the fact that it doesn't seem to create a pipeline for moving people into more long-term housing. But now there's this plan that's making its way through the Statehouse that would dissolve the program next summer and turn over funding and decision making power to five regional nonprofits who basically handle the state's homelessness response. What do you think of this approach?
Gov. Phil Scott: I think it's — when I first heard about it, probably a month, month and a half ago, I think was a House proposal — I thought it was an interesting proposal, but details matter, and there are a lot of details that would have to be worked out before this program is implemented. A lot of guard rails would have to be put on the money, a lot of parameters that have to be talked about. And I'm not sure that we're there yet. This, it appears, from my from my perspective, it appears that it just, it's spending more money than we are in the current program, which is a non-starter for me. At the very least, it shouldn't spend any more. And at best, it should be a ramp down in the future, in terms of spending less money. They're proposing, I think it's around somewhere between $40 and $50 million for this program, and currently we're well below that by about $10 million so again, long ways to go. I don't mind having the conversation, but, but it's going to have to have a lot of details and, and we're going to have to get into that and make sure that we're not moving in the wrong direction here. Because again, I think what we have now, the expanded General Assistance Program, the hotel/motel program that's become, is a failure and we need more congregate emergency shelters. We need to have eyes on the people in the system so that we can help them out of their situation.
Mikaela Lefrak: Gov. Scott, you've long called for reforms to Vermont's signature land use bill, Act 250. It was a big point of emphasis in the last couple sessions. It seems like it has been less so this legislative session. Do you how do you feel at this point that the Legislature is going to, to address some of your calls for reform to Act 250?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, well, I'm hoping that we, at the very least, can get extensions on some of the exemptions that were included in Act 181 and it— because they sunset in 2026 and it just doesn't get enough time for us to provide for the housing that we desperately need. So there are many other pieces of the housing puzzle that I think that that we need more help with. The bottom line is we just need to make it easier and less expensive to build, and one way to do that is through regulatory reform, and we have more opportunities to do that. We also need to extend some of the exemptions to areas that have water and wastewater. I think that makes sense. I also think we introduced our, our like, a TIF program for housing called Spark, you know, financing tool for infrastructure, housing, economic development and so forth. And they've, they have another, they've renamed it and changed it a bit. I still like ours better, but, but we'll, we'll work with theirs and hopefully get that expanded to really leverage more of what we need.
Mikaela Lefrak: Let's go back to the phones here and listeners, if you're just joining us, we're speaking with Vermont's Gov. Phil Scott, who's in the midst of his fifth term. John is calling in from Barnett. John, you're on the air. Go ahead.
John: Yeah. Hello, Governor. Not to say that Bernie isn't doing a bad job. I think he's doing a wonderful job. If he doesn't run again, would you consider running for his position?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the question. I have no interest in going to Washington. I'm happy being right here in Vermont, and so I would leave that to someone else.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you, John, for calling in. Gov. Scott, we last spoke to you on Vermont Edition in mid-December of last year, and at that time, we're all still processing the news that Republicans had gained I think it was 17 seats in the Vermont House, six in the Senate, and the Democratic supermajority of last session was gone. And when I asked you then about what your hopes were for this upcoming legislative session, you said that you thought Republicans were going to gain this new seat at the table, and there was going to be healthier debate in Montpelier on important issues, you said there will be, still be controversy, and “we’ll disagree vehemently in some areas, but at the same time, I think we'll come to a better conclusion, and everyone will have to give a little bit to get what they want.” Have you seen that happening? Can you provide any examples of those types of cross party compromises that I think everyone was hoping for back in December?
Gov. Phil Scott: I think there has been movement in the right direction in that regard. Let's not forget, the majority is still the majority. They set the agenda, they set the tone and, but I've had some good discussions with the speaker, in particular the pro tem as well. And, and I think that we do listen to one another and, and I think education reform is a great example of that. And I think we're, we've worked with the House. It wasn't ideal, what they what they passed, but we agreed to help them move it through so we could get to the Senate and work with the Senate and getting the keeping this thing moving. I think that's important. I think having more Republicans on committees so they have a voice has been important. They've been put some in chair positions on the committees. I think that's been helpful. So I think overall, while I have to say, the majority has been struggling a bit with this new reality, at the same time, I think that we're moving in the right direction, and we'll see what happens over the next few weeks here, but, but at least we're speaking.
Mikaela Lefrak: Let's go now to Stoney, who's calling in from Shelburne. Stoney, you're on the air.
Stoney: Hi, Gov. Scott. I'm Stoney. I live in Shelburne, but I'm a vegetable farmer in Huntington, and I'm on Medicaid, like so many of us who work in farming and food, and like, you know, over a third of all Vermonters, including children and our most vulnerable. And so I'm asking you, Gov. Scott, if you will publicly call on Republican colleagues in Congress to oppose cuts to Medicaid.
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, and we have been, I've been in discussions with other governors through the National Governors Association, as well as the New England Governors. And I think we're all keenly aware of how problematic it would be for extreme cuts to Medicaid. We are again, very, very reliant on the federal government in this area alone. Our demographics are working in our favor in that regard. So, we are working with others. And you know, when you look at other states, red states, you know, with Republican governors, some of them are just as reliant as we are. So again, I'm hopeful that that we can make some headway here. I think we're somewhat in agreement across, across the board, Republicans, Democrats alike. Governors say, you know, just walk carefully here. This is this could be very, very harmful for our states. So I'm, again, cautiously, cautiously optimistic that we'll at least have a voice in this this next round.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you, Stoney, for calling in. Governor, you had brought up education reform a few minutes ago, and before we have to let you go, I want to make sure we touch on that key subject. The House passed a bill a couple of weeks ago that was based on a very fragile tri-partisan alliance. You said yourself it was not a perfect bill, nobody really thought it was, but everybody made concessions. That bill is now in front of the Senate. You had criticized it, but eight Republican lawmakers ended up voting to advance it. I wonder if you could tell us what exactly you wished had been different. And if it does come to your desk in a similar form as it's in today, would you sign it?
Gov. Phil Scott: Oh, no, not, not anything like the House bill that came across. I have great hopes the Senate, we've been, again, working continuously, small group, they've been working continuously with leadership and to move this bill through the House and the Senate. So getting it from whatever they could do in the House, getting it to the Senate, was important. And there's some pieces of the in the House bill, like the foundation formula, I think is important. That was a great move. And, and, but there's more that needs to be done, which the Senate is working on. So again, I have high hopes that we're going to get something that at least gets us to the next stage, because this is a transition over a period of, you know, three years. So, it can't happen overnight, and but if we if we falter, if we stumble, and we don't get all the pieces, the really core pieces, passed, this could put it off for another couple years after. And with increases of education costs associated with that and property taxes increasing, it just puts us further, further behind, so, but I have great hopes that we're we'll get something through that we can all live with.
Broadcast live on Monday, April 28, 2025, at noon; rebroadcast at 7 p.m.
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