Vermont Gov. Phil Scott has the highest approval rating of any governor in the country. He's been in office four terms and is currently running for a fifth two-year term.
He's also in a rather unusual position. Scott is just one of just five governors in the country with legislatures controlled by supermajorities of the other major political party, and he's the only Republican governor contending with a Democratic supermajority. These dynamics were the subject of a recent article in Politico.
Scott joined Vermont Edition host Mikaela Lefrak on Monday to discuss the rather divided state of politics in Vermont and the country, as well as some of the major issues facing the region, from flood recovery to property taxes.
Here are some key takeaways, followed by a full transcript.
Flooding recovery
Scott said buying out properties in flood plains and using that land to store water during intense storms would be the a focal point of his administration's flood mitigation efforts. Both businesses and residential homes will need to be bought out in order to increase floodwater storage capacity.
"There's got to be a willingness of those to sell as well," he said. "I think that's the answer, at least in the short term, and it will take some time to do in a lot of money. But that's our focus at this point."
He noted that it will take money to buy out those properties and that FEMA will make up the bulk of the funding, along with funds from the state.
Property taxes
A hot topic for Vermonters this past year has been property taxes and education funding. Scott said that he's a willing partner when it comes to finding the structural changes needed to make education more equitable and affordable, but the current system is built for a larger population.
"We spend $2.4 billion a year for education — that's what we expect to spend in the next fiscal year — and that's, I think, the second highest in the nation," he said. "But we're not getting the results that we should. We have fewer students. We lose students almost on a daily basis, if you do it per capita. And we have to make changes to reflect that change in demographics."
Scott noted that some called to fund education in ways other than property taxes, but he said structural reforms need to be put into place.
National politics
While Scott has not formally endorsed a presidential candidate, he did confirm that he won't vote for former President Donald Trump. Scott said he wants to learn more about Vice President Harris, and her stance on issues like inflation and immigration. He also is curious about who running mate will be and expressed hope that Harris' running mate would be a fellow governor.
"I think that that gives you the executive experience you need, the understanding of the Congress or legislative process, and I just think it makes you well rounded," he said. "And there are a number of candidates, both Democrats and Republicans who have been governors that I think they make the most sense."
Transcript
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers and have been lightly edited for concision and clarity. They may contain errors, so please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
Divided government and cooperation
Mikaela Lefrak: Governor, let's start with the state of politics here in Vermont. In the last legislative session, lawmakers overrode a record six of your vetoes. Did any of those veto overrides surprise you in any way? Or did you know they were coming?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, I wouldn't say that I was surprised. But I thought it was unfortunate, wanted to find an area where we could work together and come to agreement on areas that I think we're important, and I think most Vermonters thought were important as well. But again, when you have a supermajority is somewhat out of balance. And they use that to their advantage. And they have every right to do that — they earned the supermajority. And I believe that there should be more balance in Montpelier, and hopefully this next election will bring us a little bit more balance. But unfortunately, I mean, we're losing some of the moderate centrists, in particular, in the Senate. People like Sen. Mazza, who we lost, Sen. Sears, we lost, but also those retiring – Sen. Kitchel, Sen. Starr, and so forth. So I’m hoping that we can bring some of that balance back into the legislative process so that we can all have our views heard and make our case, and bring Vermonters the relief they need.
Mikaela Lefrak: Give us a peek behind the curtain of what happens between legislative sessions during this summer period. Do you and members of your administrations have conversations with top legislative leaders, perhaps to push forward this more collaborative type of relationship that you're talking about? Or is this sort of a, you know, a breathing period, a working in separate spaces time?
Gov. Phil Scott: You know, it's unfortunate, I'm not blaming it on the flooding. It's just the realization that we had floods, the flood of ’23 came in July, and exactly one year later, another flood hit us, not to the extent of the first one. But that takes all of our bandwidth, both legislatively and practically amongst the executive branch. So all hands on deck, taking care of the emergency at hand. So, you know, having those conversations, while they happened, weren't as frequent as they probably would have been, had we not had the floods. But again, I’m not using that for an excuse. It's just the realization.
Mikaela Lefrak: And I do want to talk about flood recovery and planning for future floods in just a moment. But but for now, let's let's stick to this this topic of the the partisan divides that exist, specifically in Vermont, because we got a question ahead of today's show from Rebecca, a listener in Huntington, who writes, “From what I can gather, our low paid and elected legislature works incredibly hard each session. And then at the end of each session, after all this work and passage of bills, the governor comes in and vetoes them.” Rebecca says she's frustrated by this and asks, “Are you planning to promote viable alternative solutions to these issues that the Legislature is trying to solve? And do you plan to work with the Legislature in the next session, or just stand in opposition to them?”
Now, we can tell what side of things Rebecca is coming from here. But I do think it's a question that we've heard in a number of our emails. Curious what your thoughts are to that opinion.
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, Mikaela, you probably understand how the legislative process works. When I present a budget, I present a budget and they work off from that. Unfortunately, they don't have to, and they didn’t. They had their own agenda. It started right out of the gate, we had a budget adjustment that we presented, and they spent more than they should have in the budget adjustment. That set the tone and actually unfolded from there because we were spending money that we didn't have. So, you know, then we presented a budget. And, again, they don't have to seek our opinion. It's a structure to work from, and they didn't. So again, I think it's just the lack of understanding how the Legislature works. And we certainly want to get our opinion, we want our policies to meet the finish line. And we actively pursue that. But that doesn't mean they have to listen to us. And that doesn't mean they have to do anything. They knew what we were — it wasn't a surprise, I would hope it wouldn't say that. But it wasn't any surprise that I vetoed most of those provisions, those bills, because they didn't include what we've asked for. Even close to what we asked for. So again, there's two sides to this. But having an understanding of that legislative process is helpful.
Mikaela Lefrak: And Governor, what do you think of this rather unusual position that you are in being a very popular governor, but one who is also at times heavily criticized for your vetoes? It's a peculiar space to operate in.
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, again, I think that when you engage with Vermonters whether they're Democrats or Republicans or moderate or centrist independents, progressives, they all pay taxes, right? So I think some of them are concerned about things like property taxes when their property taxes go up 14%, they're concerned about that. And I think that the extremes of the party — both parties, Democrats and Republicans — are the loudest voices. So you probably, you know when you're in your world, hear from some of them about what they don't like or do like, and I'm sure that it's probably equal between criticism of the Legislature, criticism of me. But for the most part, I think those in the middle of this just want to survive. They want to have housing. They know — you know, we all campaigned on housing two years ago. And I wanted to follow through on that. And, unfortunately, we didn't do enough. But it's still here, the crisis is still here. And it's getting worse. So whether it's education funding, you know, which has has a ripple effect on our property taxes, or whether it's housing, the overall economy, I think, you know, everyday Vermonters, regardless of their political persuasion, care. So, again, I think if you've talked to those in the middle, the moderates, the centrists, those who are willing to listen to one another. I think they're concerned about the direction of Vermont, and a lot of it's because of our demographics.
Mikaela Lefrak: Our next question from a listener touches on just that. Governor. David asks, “How do we confront the tribalism that is so prominent in America today? Can state government and the legislature set the example by holding a special session discussing ways to confront hate and find ways to reach productive compromise? Is there a way to stop lies from being spread?” What do you think of that suggestion, Governor?
Gov. Phil Scott: I think it is driven by national politics, this tribalism, that we're seeing, experiencing almost, and feeling. That it does have a ripple effect, even to our small state of Vermont, which is really unfortunate. And it's not just one party, it's both parties. And as I said before, its loudest voices on the extremes of both parties that seem to catch the airwaves, catch the attention of the media, because in some respects — again, I'm not blaming the media, but they have to sell news. And when somebody makes some outlandish comment, they promote it, they make sure that people either read it or hear it or see it. And then that's not healthy, because I don't think that's the way most people think. But again, we're seeing this across the country. And, and this isn't caused by Donald Trump. He utilized it to his advantage and in the election that he won. But it's been simmering for a decade or two. And I think the way we come to grips with that is to just act more appropriately — understand that we're, we're supposed to be role models, we're supposed to be listening to another another. We can have vigorous debate on issues, and we should. That's important. But it doesn't have to get personal — personal attacks aren't necessary, and, and I believe aren’t constructive. So, again, this is a lot of it's driven by national and even worldwide politics. But we can set the tone here in Vermont by just treating each other with respect and civility and listening to one another.
Mikaela Lefrak: Governor, do you think that if you were running for the governorship of Vermont for the first time today, you would be elected? Considering the partisanship that we're experiencing in our state and in the country?
Gov. Phil Scott: Um, you know, hard to say I hadn't really even thought about that. But I just don't know. I mean, I had many years in the Senate. I was lieutenant governor before becoming governor. I think people had an opportunity to get to know me. I think that's important. So I've been steady, I think, in some of my approach and the way I view politics and the way I interact with people, and I think it's, they have gotten to know me in that way. So if you're saying from the time that I was lieutenant governor on, I believe I would have still been elected. But hard to know in this world.
Kamala Harris and vice presidential possibilities
Mikaela Lefrak: Governor, you brought up the current presidential election and former President Donald Trump, it's been a particularly intense month in this presidential race. Former President Trump was the target of an assassination attempt at a rally in Pennsylvania. President Joe Biden dropped out of the race and endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris to replace him on the ticket. A listener named Scott in East Montpelier wrote to us and says, “I applaud you for not supporting Trump in the past. Will you come out to support Vice President Harris?”
Gov. Phil Scott: Again, I've talked about this a little bit at the last press conference. I think that it's an unknown. Kamala Harris, the vice president, is somewhat of an unknown, she has a lot of work to do to educate us. I think that, you know, in the Biden administration, unlike some of the other administrations in the recent past, Vice President Harris hasn't been as visible. We don't know her as well. And, and I’m going to listen to the debates, listen to what she has to say, what her stance is on worldwide conflicts, inflation, the border, how do we make the United States, much like Vermont, more affordable? What is it we can do to – what is your platform? So again, I remain steady, I will not be voting for Donald Trump. But I'll wait and see what happens and who her running mate is. My hope would be that it will be a governor. I had said, previous that – I wouldn't support another candidate for president if they hadn't served as governor at one time in their life. And I think that that gives you the executive experience you need, the understanding of the Congress or legislative process. And I just think it makes you well-rounded. And there are a number of candidates, both Democrats and Republicans, who have been governors, that I think they make the most sense, and they're the most successful in the end.
Mikaela Lefrak: Have you been approached?
Gov. Phil Scott: Oh, no, not me. No, I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about other governors throughout the country.
Mikaela Lefrak: I asked because we've received a number of emails suggesting it including Denise here in Colchester, who writes, “Dovetailing on the opening conversation for moderation and centrists in government, would it be wonderful if vice president Harris would approach you as her running page for 2024 and run on a split ticket.” Would you consider it?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, no, I don't think that's going to happen. I haven't received any, any calls from anyone suggesting that they have a number of candidates that who are former governors or governors that they should consider, I think, I think Joe Manchin would be an interesting combination, coming from a rural state, served in the Senate, former governor, very practical, very much a moderate centrist. I mean, that would be interesting.
Public safety
Mikaela Lefrak: We have Tim in St. Albans calling in. Tim, you're on the air. Go ahead.
Tim: I wanted to ask the governor his question regarding criminal justice issues. He's opened up this last legislative session, claiming that we need to do something in Vermont regarding criminal justice, yet Vermont remains the fourth-safest state in the nation. And while we've had issues going on recently, does the governor really believe that a candidate for president, or does he actually believe that people in Vermont are unsafe as a result of criminal justice issues? And what's his position on reform?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, first of all, I do believe public safety is one area of common interest. We've worked, tried to work with the Legislature on this, we worked with Sen. Sears in particular and actually got a number of our initiatives to the finish line. And and I think that, you know, we've heard from many across the state about the need for action sooner rather than later. And so we passed S.58. That was one. It had to do with increases the enforcement of drug trafficking and so forth, which I think is critical to slowing down the supply of these deadly drugs that are coming into our state. And we also focus on repeat offenses, because we're seeing people commit crimes. So we're going to be back down the street, recommitting just hours or days later. So we were able to get, like, [S.195] made changes to the conditions of release and bail, giving judges more tools to get people back into court and hold them accountable. And and I know that this isn’t all we need to do, but I think they were important steps forward. And we're going to have to continue to focus on this because, again, I think that's one of the core areas that Vermonters want us to work together on. And they want to see results. They want people to be held accountable for what they do. And they don't want ‘em out on the streets, just thumbing their nose at the courts and not showing up for the court appearances. So again, there's a lot more work to do. But we made some gains. Not significant enough, but we moved, moved the needle a little bit.
Mikaela Lefrak: Since we're on this topic of public safety, frankly, and we're also discussing issues in national politics, such as former President Donald Trump being targeted by an assassination attempt. I am curious, do you feel concerned about your own safety? And to what extent are you worried about more political violence that's in part fueled by hateful rhetoric?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, it is really unfortunate, I think that this can't be — this is an area we have to work on together. We should be settling our political disagreements in the voting booth and not not with violence. That's what the election is all about. And I think, you know, we had an opportunity after former President Trump was shot. It was an opportunity to call for unity, which I thought he did. But it was only trying to unify the Republican Party. And what we need is more unification of all of us together, that we're Americans first, not Republicans or Democrats. We're Americans. But there's no place for violence. We need to disagree, to debate and campaign to make these points. We need to do it with civility and respect. And I think that we had, again, we had an opportunity to do that. And it was a missed opportunity.
Flood response, FEMA, dredging and buyouts
Mikaela Lefrak: Vermont requested federal assistance for flood damage following the flooding that occurred earlier this month. And as I understand it, governor, FEMA officials are currently assessing whether specific counties have enough damage to qualify for individual assistance from the federal government. Have you heard a response, and if not, when do you expect one?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, we expect to get a response from them, hopefully sometime this week. We've heard some tidbits of information. It looks like out of the eight counties that we had asked for assistance with. I think they've agreed with us on seven, working on the last one. I think it's Orange County. And we'll see where that goes. And that's for public assistance. And then there's the individual assistance. I think we're pretty good on two counties. We'll see where we go from there. But we should hear something in the next few days. And then we'll have to seek that declaration from the president, which I expect it would be turned around fairly quick.
Mikaela Lefrak: Sen. Peter Welch says FEMA is not getting the job done when it comes to providing disaster assistance to residents and to municipalities after last year's flooding. And he also says that it's time to fundamentally overhaul the way the federal government distributes disaster aid. How would you rate FEMA’s performance in Vermont over the last 12 months?
Gov. Phil Scott: You know, we learned a lot about FEMA during Irene, and so we've gleaned a lot from then forward. And we've learned a lot last year as well. So I think you just have to have the mindset that FEMA is like an insurance company, and you're dealing with an entity that may not be there to make everything better, but they're going to do whatever they can, within their structure, to assist you. I think an overhaul makes a lot of sense. It's in the hands of Congress to do that. FEMA is a creature of the Congress. And when they receive their allotment of money, what they can spend, that's what they hold. And so if there's any changes that need to be made with FEMA, it's Congress will have to do that. But we'd be obviously a willing partner to make any suggestions we might see. I think future mitigation, having money available, more money to prevent these types of situations in the future, would be pragmatic and very helpful.
Mikaela Lefrak: Now, the flooding that occurred a few weeks ago happened on the one-year anniversary of last year's floods, is this not going to just keep happening unless the state does something dramatic to mitigate against future flooding? … Are the changes that we're making at the state level, significant enough, in your opinion, or do we need to do something much bigger?
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, I would say that, first of all, having this, this flooding this this year in ’24, exactly one year after the extreme flooding we saw in ’23, was a kick in the teeth for many, especially those who are still recovering from last year's flood. To say that this is a, you know, 100-year event or a 10-year event, we've proven that it may not be. So we need to take steps to make sure that we're mitigating as much as we can. We can't build in some areas, we're going to have to have buyouts in certain areas, we need to increase the capacity of storage, water storage. And we hear a lot of people asking for dredging, for instance. And unbeknownst to those who are asking, we have. We agree that there needs to be dredging in certain places, there were 400 permits that were issued as a result of last year's flooding. And I expect there'll be more again this year. But dredging in the traditional sense, digging down deeper in these streams and and in rivers, isn't the answer. It's very difficult to do — I have experience in the excavation industry, 35 years of that, and I know how difficult that is to do. What we need is more capacity, though. We need to excavate maybe horizontally, giving areas — you know, that's where the buyouts come in, and be utilizing the land and to store the water during these intense, intense storms. So that's what I see happening. That will make the biggest difference in the future. But it's going to take money to buy out some of these properties. And there's got to be a willingness of those to sell as well. So, again, I think that's the answer, at least in the short term, and it will take some time to do, and a lot of money. But that's our focus at this point.
Mikaela Lefrak: Money that you see largely coming from the federal government?
Gov. Phil Scott: Some, yes, we have some state money, but there's federal money available from FEMA that we received and will be receiving in this storm as well, I believe. But we need more of it. It won't go far. But there'll be businesses, both businesses and residential homes, that will need to be bought out in order to provide for this storage capacity that we desperately need.
Education
Mikaela Lefrak: We have a number of calls coming in for you, governor, including Tiffany in Stowe.
Tiffany: My question for the governor today is whether or not he believes the Agency of Education under his administration has captured and delivered the data that the Legislature, school boards and taxpayers need to be able to evaluate the equitability of our state's education funding system, as well as the quality of the education being delivered itself.
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, obviously, I understand where some would like to go. And I've been a willing partner in terms of trying to find a structural changes that need will need to be made to make the education system more equitable, and more affordable. We, you know, we spend $2.4 billion a year for education — that's what we expect to spend in the next fiscal year — and that's, I think, the second highest in the nation. But we're not getting the results that we should. We have fewer students. We lose students almost on a daily basis, if you do it per capita. And we have to make changes to reflect that change in demographics, fewer youth, means fewer students, which — we have a system that's built for a larger population, means that we're spending money on the infrastructure rather than for kids.
But changing the way the education funding formula, for some have said we should relieve the property tax program of this burden, that we shouldn't be collecting it from property taxes, we should be doing it more in other areas. And that's fine, we can have that conversation. But until we have structural reforms, we're going to be just spending the same amount of money, it's coming out of a different pocket. And we're not really saving anything, but you might not see it in your property tax bills. So there's a lot of work left to do. And it's ongoing. It isn't a one time and then move on. It's going to be a continual issue that we haven't addressed as a state in the last probably 20 years.
Mikaela Lefrak: Tiffany brought up the Agency of Education. Some listeners might be aware that last month, two Democratic state legislators sued you and the interim education secretary, Zoie Saunders. This comes after the Senate voted not to confirm Saunders as education secretary, and then right after that vote, you appointed her as in the interim role. Lawyers with the Vermont Attorney General's office have asked the court to dismiss this lawsuit. Why do you think it should be dismissed?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, I think it's within our, my constitutional authority to do so. I think it's pretty clear. And I think the attorney general thinks it's pretty clear as well. So I think it's a bit of a frivolous suit, and maybe to take everyone's eyes off from the real problem and the structural problems that we face, the enormous cost of education in Vermont and not addressing that accordingly. So I think we should move on, move forward. We had some productive conversations behind the scenes with the Legislature during this past session about what needs to be done. They actually came out with a number of different proposals for about 24 hours during that period before they pulled back those changes, but they're still viable. And hopefully, we'll come to the conclusion that we — it's not going to be easy. And it's not going to be satisfying to many. But it's going to be hard work, and difficult choices will have to be made. But they're going to have to be made until we can have an economy and a more affordable Vermont where we attract more people, more kids and more working families to Vermont, which we, again, desperately need.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, I hear you saying that the opposition to Zoie Saunders is in some ways a distraction towards other issues with the education system. I can imagine Democrats, though, in the Legislature would say the same thing to you and urge you to appoint somebody else in the face of the staunch opposition to her. How does this get resolved?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, again, we're — Interim Secretary Saunders is going out on a campaign, a listening tour, and we'll see if there's areas where we can work together and find compromise. I believe there is. I think, once you get to know Zoie, I think that you'll understand, as we did, that she's the right candidate for this position. For those who don't realize it — you know, I didn't just reach out and do a national search for a secretary of education. This comes by way of the State Board of Education. They had 17 candidates — they went out looking for candidates, and had 17 candidates who submitted their resumes and applications. And of those, they had to pare it down to three. So they did the work. They did all the interviewing, and they came down to three. Zoie, I believe, scored the highest of the three. We thought she was the right choice for Vermont to help us through these difficult times. And I think she'll prove to do just that. But I think her listening tour will gain insight into who she is, as well as solutions where we can move forward.
Emission reductions
Mikaela Lefrak: We have Sylvie in Tunbridge calling in.
Sylvie: Thank you so much for taking my call, Governor. So I am calling you the person who is more than concerned about climate change, I think it just, you know, obviously have not done enough in Vermont and worldwide. And I am really concerned about the amount of time and power that utilities companies have in the conversation about our energy policy. And that was true in 2016-17 when the original renewable energy standard was passed. And we saw 1,300 to 1,500 lost in the solar industry. … How do we mandate utilities to get on board for real emission reductions? Not renewable energy, but real emission reductions?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, we have a Public Utility Commission, again, an independent body of three people who would take that into account. And we have our Public Service Department, part of the executive branch, that is the voice of ratepayers as well. And we have the legislative process. So, again, the industries – and it's changed over the years, who the industry is, but they have a vested interest in what they're selling. And so we just have to determine what's best for Vermont, we have to make it as affordable as possible, reduce our emissions. And we have plans to do so, we've forwarded those plans to the Legislature. And again, I think some of what they've they passed [inaudible] in the wrong direction and make it less affordable here in Vermont, and I vetoed a number of those. But I wasn't successful. Again, one of the many reasons I think we need more balance in the Legislature to make sure that we have balance in the end to protect Vermonters
Mikaela Lefrak: Gov. Scott, I'm gonna let you go with with a softball but also a very important question that we got from Catie in Hinesburg, who asks, “What is your favorite creemee flavor?”
Gov. Phil Scott: Maple. That one's not hard. Just depends on where you get it, right?
Mikaela Lefrak: Do you have a favorite spot?
Gov. Phil Scott: The Bragg Farm is good. I know, my friend Al Gobeille in Burlington, he makes a pretty good maple creemee himself. And then there's a local stand right down here on Route 2 in Montpelier. They do a good job. But I haven't had a bad maple creemee from anywhere.
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