Vermont's new Senate majority leader talks property taxes, goals for upcoming session

Vermont's Senate has a new leader, Democratic Sen. Kesha Ram Hinsdale of the Chittenden-Southeast district.

She was elected over incumbent Majority Leader Alison Clarkson from Windsor County, who had held the role for four years. On Election Day, Republicans flipped six Senate seats and broke the Democrats' supermajority.

Ram Hinsdale served in the Vermont House from 2009 to 2016 and was elected to the Senate in 2020.

Ram Hinsdale discusses why she ran against her successor and outlines her goals as lawmakers head into a new session in January. This interview was produced for the ear. We highly recommend listening to the audio. We’ve also provided a transcript, which has been edited for length and clarity.

Mikaela Lefrak: So Democrats lost 18 seats in the House, six in the Senate. And the key issue this election season that we were hearing over and over and over again was affordability and taxes. Education spending is too high. Property taxes are too high, and it's getting harder and harder to afford to live here in the state. These issues are no surprise to you.

But it's not like all of our education spending issues were figured out last session and property taxes are just going to start dramatically declining this session. Are Democrats, this session, are they committed to cutting taxes or reducing how big the next tax hikes will be?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: Well, I mean, let me start by saying that what happened in Vermont, we have to acknowledge, was different than what happened nationally. You know, they're related. Everything was about the economy this election cycle. But, I have said to my colleagues, to many nodding heads, that Vermonters told us they're socially liberal and financially hurting. You know, that starts and ends with property taxes in many ways, but it has to do with a lot of pocketbook issues and the fundamentals of our economic well-being, and so much of it has to do with not planning for Vermont to shrink and decay, but planning for Vermont to grow. You know, not thinking about fewer schools but fuller schools. Not thinking about, you know, where we can have health care clinics, but what does holistic rural health care look like? And an economy that truly creates opportunity for everyone.

So to your question, you know, are we looking with laser focus at reducing people's property tax burden? One hundred percent. And it was unfair, I think, in many ways, of us as Democrats to go home and, you know, say to our constituents, essentially, "It's really complex, and we ran out of time, but re-elect us, and we'll get to it next cycle." You know, I really trust the Vermont voter, and they told us, “You have to listen to us and keep our core issues in mind, our financial well-being in mind.”

So folks may have heard, our Senate President, Phil Baruth, has essentially said, we are starting day one with whatever Gov. [Phil] Scott is hoping to propose on the education financing system, and we will work collaboratively from there, you know. But I think people can expect that we'll have to think fast and think slow, because people want immediate relief, but we can't transform our entire education system and our education financing system in one session. But people also can't see a double-digit tax hike or a tax hike again this year. So we'll have to be providing relief and then looking at a long-term fix for our education finance system.

Mikaela Lefrak: So you talk about working collaboratively, working with Gov. Phil Scott, a Republican. One of the main issues, though, where you and Democrats in the House and Senate have differed from Republicans and Gov. Scott is around the Affordable Heat Act, or the clean heat standard. You support it, but this bill drew a lot of criticism last session and on the campaign trail, for many people who ended up being ousted from their seats because people were worried that it's going to dramatically increase their heating costs, and we don't know exactly what those costs are going to be yet, but it's a real concern. Given your concerns that you were just talking about with Vermonters’ tax burdens and affordability, do you stand by your votes for the Affordable Heat Act?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: I absolutely stand by my votes because we, and especially as majority leader, need to believe in the committee process and that, you know, our committees had Vermonters' best interests in mind.

You know, people were reminded in our caucus that I did say, you know, to my colleagues, “This is going to hurt, and I'm not sure the pain is worth the gain in this situation.” because Vermonters really want to be given choice before they're punished for a decision they can't make.

And I say that because, when it comes to our transportation system and our heating system, we know it's contributing a lot to our greenhouse gas emissions, and we want to reduce those. But Vermonters can't hop on a bus very easily, or, you know, change their heating system in a volatile climate situation. So we were back on our heels on that one, and I think we need to go back to energy issues in terms of what are people's bread and butter — climate adaptation, paying down their utility bills, making this transition meaningful, and supporting people through it, rather than telling them, “We know best.”

Mikaela Lefrak: So the Affordable Heat Act, that hasn't been implemented yet. There's some things that could happen this session that could affect its future. What are you thinking about and how the original bill could change. Like, will you continue to support it?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: Well, we created a look back. We said to Vermonters, ”We hear you that you don't just trust us and trust government to accelerate into the future without checking back in with you.”

And I think in that check back, we're going to hear, you know, that we could create a much simpler system to start building this transition, and it's going to have to be one that doesn't add exorbitant new costs to Vermonters.

So one of the things I've been asking, and I asked again in campaign season is, you know, we had a political fight over an energy utility years ago, decades ago now, and now we have Efficiency Vermont. You know, we have a system that demonstrates value and is stabilizing our electric rates and helping, you know, those who need it most weatherize. But you know, people look at that system and say, "It still feels like it's helping mostly those who could already afford a solar panel on their house, whereas I need to fix my roof, I need, you know, more help with a leaky house than just, you know, a Tesla Powerwall." So, the conversation has become quite gourmet.

So how do we, you know, really, not only look at what is a simple way of creating the resources we need to make this transition happen, but using it to create good jobs and, you know, warm, safe homes for people first? I think that gets us back to what I think listeners know is my foundational issue, if they've been paying attention, which is housing. And so people don't want to be told we're going to add to the cost of your housing and your utilities until everyone has a safe, warm home to be in, and that, I think, is where we need to focus our climate efforts.

Mikaela Lefrak: So yeah, let's talk about housing here for a minute. Because, before being elected to this position, or perhaps still currently, you're the chair of the Senate Committee on Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs, and you had a major role in that position in shaping policy around statewide investments in building affordable housing, in Act 250 reform and land-use reform. But according to long-standing Senate tradition, caucus leaders, as you now are, don't also serve as committee chairs. So are you going to be stepping down from that role?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: That is up to the Committee on Committees, and I'm going to abide by, you know, their decision. I still plan to play a role on the economic development committee.

I mean, you know, leaders serve on committees, and that's important because we only have 30 people. But you know, I'm happy to hand over the reins to someone else to lead the committee and continue to do that good work. Because Vermonters told us, whatever committee we sit on, you know, they want to see us focus on the economy, their tax burden, their cost of living, and a lot of that comes back to the economic development committee and figuring out how we shift our demographics, and that, frankly, starts with how we create more housing opportunities for people.

Mikaela Lefrak: So could you say more about why you wanted to have this role as the majority leader, rather than leading this important committee where you had a real leadership position in shaping policy on your No. 1 priority, housing?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: We are looking at problems that are more and more intractable and complex and need more of our committees to solve them. I mean, I felt, even chairing the housing committee, that I couldn't really tackle homelessness, because it's a health and welfare committee issue and an appropriations committee issue. Property taxes start with the education committee. I've actually asked to leave the finance committee and go to the education committee so that we don't work at cross purposes.

So, you know, it felt to me like the senate president needed that help to make sure that our committees are working together, because none of these issues fit neatly into a single committee. So I can continue to work on the policies, but support the good work of each committee and then support their collaboration before things get to the floor, which is going to be extremely critical.

Mikaela Lefrak: In this next legislative session, do you think the Legislature should push for major statewide investments in affordable housing development, or is there no appetite for that state-funded investment anymore because of its potential impact on taxes?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: I think there is appetite for investment in housing, and I think where we're going to see that, or where, you know, I think even the governor and I could agree, is that investment should go into the infrastructure that underlies future housing and economic development.

Most communities are being stymied, you know, not by a desire for affordable housing, but by having the wastewater, sewer capacity, just the basic infrastructure to support more housing. So, you know, I think that's an area where we can also get back to our fundamentals and grow the entire pie and make affordable housing a slice of that.

But I think what Vermonters have told us is everyone's hurting. The cost of living is so high in Vermont, you know, it's somewhere between $130,000 and $140,000 a year to be able to safely, you know, pay your bills on time, and maybe take a vacation, maybe eat out once in a while. That's an extremely high cost of living. So there's a science behind looking at all the components of that and trying to really aim to have Vermonters, you know, hurt less financially. And you know, that starts with growing economically, not just sort of planning for supporting those most low income because people in the middle class are losing ground and feeling unstable.

Mikaela Lefrak: I want to ask about the rural-urban divide that exists in Vermont. You and the Senate President Pro Tem Phil Baruth both represent Chittenden County. I'm curious, senator, what you're hearing from your constituents in Chittenden-Southeast about their priorities and how you're going to balance those with what might be very different priorities from the rest of the state?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: Well, that's a really important question, and I'll start by saying there is a difference. We see it electorally. Most of the state swung much more for Donald Trump in this election and for Republicans than Chittenden County.

We saw loss in Chittenden County, but, you know, we didn't make up for it in most other places. People are angry. And it reminds me, as one of the only people left who's been serving for over a decade, it reminds me of post recession, when we started to look at incomes bouncing back, but when you pulled the counties apart, only Chittenden County's income was pre-recession levels, on average. And the rest of the state took a very long time to get back up above pre-recession income levels. Some counties still haven’t recovered.

And then you layer on top of that, flooding impact. You know, their homes may be losing value because they don't have access to broadband. And rural economic development should be important to all of us.

And it also doesn't help when you do hear people saying, you know, I used to love coming to the big Queen City. I used to love coming to Burlington, and now I can't find parking. I'm worried about my safety. You know, it feels like it's not for me, but for outsiders.

So we really have to have a state where everyone feels unified. And I, you know, I think I was also elected because I've run for statewide office. I travel the state frequently. You know my husband, even though it was in Chittenden County, grew up on a dairy farm. And so, you know, I'm trying to think about everyone's lived experiences. And again, you know that rural-urban, quote-unquote, divide wasn't at all about social issues. It was about economic issues. And we have to be listening to folks who struggle to be able to get to a doctor's appointment or the grocery store, let alone come to a public meeting and tell us what they're thinking. So we really have to go to them and not ask for anything — not ask for their vote, not ask for resources — just listen. We did a lot of lecturing and not enough listening this cycle, and we need to change that dynamic really quickly.

Mikaela Lefrak: One more question for you, senator. There was a lot of chatter on the campaign trail about how Vermont's Legislature has leaned too far left. Now, you used to be a Democrat/Progressive, and, correct me if I'm wrong here, but are now solely listed as a Democrat. Have your own politics or policy priorities shifted more towards the center, and, if so, is that a result of what you were hearing from constituents?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: You know, I would say I still consider myself a lowercase “p,” progressive Democrat. But I didn't think that that faction of our political community wanted me. And I think some of us are feeling that way. You know, that there's a really big purity test out there. And, you know, as we try and build a big coalition and listen to people's struggles meeting their basic needs, that we're kind of being told that isn't progressive enough, that isn't liberal enough,

Mikaela Lefrak: What kind of policies are you talking about there?

Kesha Ram Hinsdale: First of all, I would say a majority of Vermont, you know, voted for Phil Scott, so those were Democrats. You know, those are people who care a lot about social issues, but don't want that to make up the whole of what we do. You know, I had support from the Progressive wing on my housing policies, but, you know, there was a real drop off in enthusiasm.

And then, you know, when I went back on the campaign trail, I heard from a very small group, “We wanted you to raise income taxes.” And I, you know, I had been raked over the coals in the press for saying, “I'm not opposed to asking the wealthiest to pay their fair share, but we need to focus our political and intellectual energy on the property tax right now.” And you know, there was a small faction that, you know, really kind of pushed me away for saying that. And I'm not going to say “I told you so,” at all. But people wanted us to spend our time on property tax relief, and whatever that includes, however we transition our system. You know, I think we figured we could go home and just explain why we didn't get there, but we now have more people who are in danger of losing their homes because they can't afford their property taxes. And it should be the ethical, progressive thing to do, to be focused on, you know, those Vermonters, as well.

So, I think we just need to govern like we have, you know, a big tent again. And we've lost some of that tent, but we should be thinking about who's not in the room, right? I mean, we lost a lot of colleagues from places where they were trying to tell us, this is, you know, this is painful. I took votes that are going to, you know, take me out of the coalition. And we need to rebuild that coalition. And that means first stabilizing people, you know, their income, getting them into the middle class, you know, and then asking them to reach back and make sure no one's left behind. But people are really asking us to help them put their own safety mask on before assisting others. And that's, I think, what you'll see from us this session.

Broadcast live on Wednesday, November 20, 2024, at noon; rebroadcast at 7 p.m.

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