Vermont Public interviewed three candidates for Vermont governor on Tuesday. It was part of the station's series of debates and candidate interviews ahead of the general election on Nov. 5.
Incumbent Gov. Phil Scott, a Republican from Berlin, is running for a fifth term. He previously served as lieutenant governor and a state senator. The Democratic candidate is Esther Charlestin of Middlebury. She runs an educational consulting business, co-chairs the Vermont Commission on Women and is a former Middlebury select board member. The independent candidate is Kevin Hoyt of Bennington, a former candidate for governor and seats in Vermont's House and Senate.
Below are key highlights from the interviews. A full transcript has also been provided.
Affordability
When asked how to reduce the dual burdens of inflation and taxation on Vermonters’ pocketbooks, Gov. Phil Scott said Vermont’s demographics and declining population need to be at the center of any conversation about affordability. “We need to grow the workforce. We need more kids, or we need to consolidate [schools], and we have to get a handle on some of the expenses throughout.”
Esther Charlestin said expanding Medicaid would make living in Vermont more affordable, as would funding rental assistance programs. She also said she would “get rid of regulatory barriers so we can increase our mixed housing.”
Kevin Hoyt said corruption is the root of Vermont’s issues. “I think corruption is a big problem. I think you're not the problem because you're made out of carbon. I think they're the problem and we cannot afford our corrupt government,” he said.
Homelessness
Scott noted that Vermont does have a general assistance program that can help pay for shelter for people experiencing homelessness, but he believes the program has grown in an unsustainable way. He believes the state’s focus should be on long-term housing solutions, and he advocated for more reforms to Act 250, Vermont’s signature land use law, that go farther than the reform bill passed by the legislature earlier this year.
Charlestin said the legislature should reinstate previous funding for the emergency motel housing program. She also wants to fund emergency shelters “where we can provide mental health care, substance abuse treatment and, of course, empowering folks to get housing.”
When asked about reinstating funding for the motel housing program, Hoyt said “I do believe we need to put people in hotels. We have people that are starving and dying on our streets.” He went on to reiterate that government corruption is the root of the state’s housing and affordability issues.
Climate
Each of the candidates was asked a listener-submitted question about how they would help Vermont reach its emission reduction requirements, as outlined by the Global Warming Solutions Act.
Gov. Phil Scott said climate change is a real threat, but he believes the legislature’s current efforts to reduce emissions are too expensive for Vermonters. He noted that he vetoed the Global Warming Solutions Act when it came across his desk in 2020. “We need to reduce emissions but we can’t hurt people along the way to do it,” he said.
Esther Charlestin said she would support funding programs that would help more people buy electric vehicles, weatherize their homes and buildings, and access public transportation. “Making it easier for folks to transition is important,” she said.
Kevin Hoyt said the Global Warming Solutions Act should be repealed, but his reasoning was very different from Scott’s. “The climate is changing because it’s being manipulated and engineered,” Hoyt said. “It’s called geoengineering.” He then referenced debunked conspiracy theories such as chemtrails.
Transcript
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers and have been lightly edited for concision and clarity. They may contain errors, so please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
Mikaela Lefrak: This is Vermont Edition, I’m Mikaela Lefrak. Today’s show is part of our series of debates and candidate interviews ahead of the November 5th general election. Today we will be joined by three candidates for Vermont Governor. This year Vermont Public has adopted the Citizens Agenda approach to election coverage. More than 620 Vermonters have submitted questions for candidates and thoughts on the issues they care most about. You’ll hear some of those today. To submit your own question for one of our other upcoming debates or candidate interviews, email us at vote@vermontpublic.org. My first three questions to each candidate will be about the same, followed by two questions on their specific records. The order of today’s interviews was determined by the candidates’ polling numbers in a recent statewide poll. That means we’ll begin with Governor Phil Scott, a Republican, followed by Democrat-Progressive Esther Charlestin, and then independent Kevin Hoyt. Each candidate will have the same amount of airtime.
Gov. Phil Scott
Mikaela Lefrak: Governor Scott is running for a 5th consecutive term as Vermont’s governor. He previously served as lieutenant governor, and a state Senator. He lives in Berlin. Governor Scott, welcome.
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, good afternoon, Mikaela.
Mikaela Lefrak: So let's start with a question about the high cost of living here in Vermont, as I'm sure you could expect, Governor, this is an issue that came up time and time again in our Citizens Agenda, and a listener named Jeremy writes this “I'm left leaning. My property taxes went up $1,200 in a year, and they're projected to increase next year. Food and gas have come at a much higher cost. Living in Vermont is becoming a thing for the wealthy and not for regular folks.” What Jeremy asks can be done governor?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, first of all, he's not alone. We're seeing that across the state, affordability has been something I've talked about since day one, when I first was elected. Three principals were, you know, grow the economy, make Vermont more affordable and protect the most vulnerable. Eight years ago, we were spending. We were spending about, um, we were spending about $1.5 billion today we're spending about $2.4 billion. So, we also have, you know, a population that is declining, so we need to do something about it. We have the second highest spending per pupil in the nation, so we need to do things a little bit different. We need to grow the workforce. We need more kids, or we need to consolidate, and we have to get a handle on some of the expenses throughout. So, there are, you know, it's not just education, but that's one of them, healthcare as well, but a lot of it is due to our demographics. And again, I've talked about that a lot as well.
Mikaela Lefrak: I want to dive in a little bit deeper to education spending. You brought it up. You mentioned we there need more kids. We need to consolidate small schools. Early financial forecast from your office showed that property taxes could rise again next year by an average of 7% even if school spending stays flat. And last month, you sent a letter to school leaders urging school boards to quote consider all options to contain education spending growth. But in that letter, I didn't see any specific recommendations, other than suggesting that school leaders reach out to the agency of education for support. Can you ask, what types of cost containment were you referring to that school board leaders can control?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, again, we've, over the past you know, eight years we've had a lot of ideas that we brought to the legislature have been rejected by the legislature along the way, but towards the end, you know, we multiple healthcare proposals we've been we've been asking for a while, a five year plan to freeze rates so that we can invest more in in kids. We've got to use natural attrition to bring the staff to student ratio down, and we still have the lowest if we were able to do that, we have to look at the funding formula as well. I think that's important, because even though schools work hard to try and keep their costs down, they don't always benefit, because it's all put into a big pot, the invoices are pretty much sent to Montpelier, and then everyone pays relatively same. So it doesn't reward some of the school districts who are trying to do the right thing. So again, this year, we offered to use existing revenue to buy down rates. We thought we should have a growth rate to cap the increases next year as a bridge to long term reform, and the legislature wasn't interested. And so we're in the situation we are right now. And instead, they decided to put in place another study, yet another one. I mean, we've had dozens of them over the over the years, and I don't expect that it'll say anything different than what we've heard before. In fact, the legislature actually had a proposal on the table for about 24 hours towards the ends of the session. A lot included a lot of the things that we talked about and they pulled it off the table. So again, this study waiting for that, I think was a mistake. I think we should have just done the hard work, put in some cost containment measures in between, and then long-term reform. Because if we don't, if we don't do anything about the structural reform, structural reforms need in the education system, this isn't going to get any better, and that's why we decided to send out a letter so that we could, we could warn people about what's what's going to happen.
Mikaela Lefrak: Okay, let's move on to another topic that goes hand in hand with affordability, and that's housing. We got a message from Matt in Burlington, who works for an agency that assists the unhoused, and Matt says they've seen an extraordinary rise in need over the last year, and Matt may also be forced to leave Vermont as the cost of housing has become untenable for them. Now that's bringing up two intertwined housing issues, and I want to start with homelessness. Hundreds of Vermonters were exited from the state's motel housing program this fall. Do you think the state has a responsibility to ensure those folks, those same folks, are housed over the winter?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, again, we do have a general assistance program. We work with the legislature. They pass something that that I think will help in that regard, as a reminder. You know, we, when I first came into office, we were spending about $3 million a year for our general assistance program for those who are homeless. About four years later, it grew to about $70 million, and that's just not sustainable. It also isn't good for the people who are putting in some of those situations. I mean, they're in isolation, they're not getting the help they need, the addiction issues, mental health issues they might have. Drug dealers were preying upon them in the in the hotels, there were deaths, overdoses and so forth. So, what we need to do is we need more housing. I mean, the bottom line is, the answer to almost all of this is more housing, more choices, more affordable housing, because there's some in the program that just can't find a place to live and that's just not that's not acceptable, and that's why, you know, two years ago, legislators, many, many legislative most, all of them were, were average, you know, campaigning on the premise of more housing. And once they got there, it was, it seemed to fall on deaf ears. I mean, we had a tri-partisan agreement early on, and that bill that we all agreed to tri-partisan support never came off the wall. Said they passed the conservation bill, and we're seeing the results of that. We're not, we're not building as much housing as we need.
Mikaela Lefrak: Yeah, I want to, can I ask you about what you just called the conservation bill, and you're referring to the overhaul to Act 250 the Vermont legislature passed earlier this year. You vetoed this bill saying that, as you just did, it's more a conservation bill than a development bill, and it wasn't doing nearly, and it isn't doing nearly enough to build and restore homes in rural communities. I do want to point out, as I'm sure you know, that it does set up a number of exemptions, including for projects of up to 50 units in dozens of village centers around the state. So why, why have you to a bill that allows something like that? What was it specifically about this bill that caused you to say, no, this is not right, again?
Gov. Phil Scott: Again, it was just short-term solutions. It was only for two years some of these the regulatory reform you're referring to, and then it gets worse. Then we need more than two years to put us back on track. We we're going to need 24 to 36,000 more homes by 2029. As the you know, others have reflected on, home prices have gone up about. 38% half of renters spend more than 30% of their income on housing. So we need more we have more demand than we have supply and, you know, it's a basic economic principle we need. We need more supply and less demand so that will drive some of the prices down. But, you know, government can't do everything in this, so we have to clear the way. We need tax incentives. We need more regulatory reform. If this is truly a crisis that everyone says it is, then we will, we will act accordingly. You know, during the flooding we saw during the pandemic, we had a state of emergency in place, and we had to do some things that were uncomfortable to many. And I think if this is truly, truly a crisis, then we're gonna have to get uncomfortable, and we're gonna have to stretch much further than they went. I'm not saying that what they did was not helpful, but it was just a stopgap measure and we need more of it for a longer period of time.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, I'd like to move on to another issue that came up time and time again in our Citizens Agenda answers that were submitted by listeners of Vermont Public, and that was climate. To address concerns around the warming climate in 2020 the Vermont legislature passed the Global Warming Solutions Act, which, for folks who aren't aware, created these legally binding emission reduction requirements. And the first deadline is rapidly approaching. By 2025, Vermont needs to reduce its greenhouse gas pollution to 26% below 2005 levels. Anne in Williston asks, What will you do to ensure that Vermont meets the Act's emission reductions requirement? And I'll add, Governor, do you think the Global Warming Solutions Act should be repealed?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, as you probably know, Mikaela, I veto that bill. I didn't think it was constitutional, nor did I think it was achievable, and we're seeing it in real time. Now. Why setting arbitrary mandates and essentially asking special interest groups to sue us? It's just the wrong approach, and they've done that. So this isn't going to help. Climate change is real, and we're seeing the impacts of more severe weather right now, and I propose hundreds of millions of dollars to help people transition to carbon free solutions. I, you know, the vehicle that I ride around in every day is a Ford lightning. I don't think there's any other governor in the country that has an electric vehicle. We need to reduce emissions, but we're going, you know, it's taught me a lot too, because it's not going to be a flick of the switch. It's not going to happen overnight. We have to make sure that we have the grid that can, that can produce the power we need to transition to electric vehicles, and we need charging more charging stations. You know, we can't we need to reduce emission, but we can't hurt people along the way to do it. The clean heat standard, the renewable energy standard, or carbon tax, that's just going to hurt people. So let's, let's work together to figure out a way to get to where we want to go, much like we did with water quality in the early days of my governorship. And I think we can get there without raising all these taxes and forcing people to do things they can't afford to do.
Mikaela Lefrak: Governor, now you're going to have me spending my afternoon fact checking whether or not you're the only governor with an electric vehicle.
Gov. Phil Scott: I don’t know of any others that do but when I've gone to some of the conventions, they've remarked that they'd like to, but they haven't been able to do it. So, I've offered advice.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, Governor, you have one of the highest approval ratings of any governor in the country. You've been reelected numerous times, but those same voters are also electing the democratic state senators and representatives that you often heavily criticize, including during this conversation. So, I just want to ask you, point blank, do you think voters in Vermont are making the wrong choice again and again at the ballot box when they're reelecting their Democratic legislators?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, I guess in this case, I think we need more common-sense candidates to step up and run, and we see some of them right now who have done so. And that's across the board, both Republicans and Democrats and independents alike. We are losing some of those more common sense, Practical Democrats who Blue Dogs, so to speak, the Bobby Stars, of course, my good friend, Dick Mazza, Dick Sears and so forth. Jane Kitchel, there are many who we won't have in the next cycle. But I don't think you know, I know many people think, because of the supermajority, that the people must have elected that and that was their goal, but I don't think they did it for that reason. I think they think they know their legislators, they but they haven't checked on how they vote, and I think that that's important, and something I've advocated for. When they go in the ballot box this time, they have to check their record, do some, do some, some fact checking themselves, and see how they voted, make sure it aligns with what they're seeing and feeling, whether it's about the affordability of Vermont or whatever it is, and make sure they, you know, find some people to work with me so that we can, we can accomplish the goals that we need to make Vermont more affordable and a more attractive place to live.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, my last question for you, Governor actually ties into that question of alignment. Many voters who support you wrote to us through our Citizens Agenda, concerned about your affiliation with the Republican Party, and they want to know why you continue to be a part of the organization the party, excuse me, despite vocally opposing former President Donald Trump as candidate.
Gov. Phil Scott: Yeah, well, I call them as I see them. I think we need more moderation on both sides. We need more people in the middle. I think that's where most, most Vermonters are, most Americans are, but they have the loudest voices on the extremes of both parties, and so they get the most attention, and it becomes more polarized, and we need to bring people together. Me changing parties or disavowing the Republican Party, that's not going to help our country in the long run, what we need is just more civility, respect, bringing people together, and then voting your conscience. Vote the way your constituency wants you to vote, and I think that I've done that, I've been clear I'm not going to support former President Trump in the next election, but at the same time, I think that we have a lot of work to do right here in our own backyard. I think there's a possibility, if we can just get more like-minded centrists and moderates in the legislature, I think we will have a more affordable Vermont. We'll have more housing. We'll get some things done. And I think that that, you know, if that happens a few years from now, I think we'll just see less polarization, both in the state, but outside our borders as well.
Mikaela Lefrak: Who do you plan to vote for in the 2024, presidential election?
Gov. Phil Scott: Well, again, I've been clear I won't be voting for Donald Trump, but, but I'm focusing on what we're doing here. I'll like I did the last time. I'll let people know how I voted after I vote, I didn't endorse a candidate in the last election, and I'm not ready to do that in this election either.
Mikaela Lefrak: Governor Phil Scott, thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate it.
Gov. Phil Scott: Thank you.
Mikaela Lefrak: Phil Scott is a Republican from Berlin. He's one of the three gubernatorial candidates we are speaking with today ahead of the November 5 election coming up on Vermont Edition, Democrat Esther Charleston, we are not taking any calls today. This is Vermont edition. Stay with us.
Esther Charlestin
Mikaela Lefrak: Esther Charlestin joins us now. She co-chairs the Vermont Commission on Women and runs an educational consulting firm. She's also a former Middlebury Selectboard member. Esther, good to talk to you again.
Esther Charlestin: Thank you for having me.
Mikaela Lefrak: Now, let's start, as we did with Gov. Phil Scott, with a question about affordability. I'll remind you a listener named Jeremy wrote to us about their property taxes going up $1,200 in a year, the cost of food and gas increasing, and they're feeling like Vermont is only a place for the wealthy. What they ask can be done to decrease these dual burdens of inflation and taxation. Esther?
Esther Charlestin: Thank you for the question. Affordability is definitely a concern, and how do we make Vermont more affordable? Honestly, I think about healthcare. So, expanding Medicaid, so that folks with low to mid income are able to be covered. I think about housing, housing, housing. Housing is a huge piece. Rent, I mean, a two bedroom is easily $2,500 a month. And so how do people make it? So, making sure that folks have access to programs so that they can afford, making sure we get rid of regulatory barriers so we can increase our mixed housing, so that folks have options.
Mikaela Lefrak: So in our primary debates for the Democratic nomination for governor, you said that you would support the legislature passing tax credits for people who can't afford their property taxes or bills. Could you provide more specifics on what you were suggesting there specifically how those tax credits would be funded?
Esther Charlestin: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would say giving folks an option. I think about maybe a widower who has a huge house, is on a fixed income and cannot afford her property taxes. Or I think about a family who bought a house, you know, a few years ago and has a strict budget and can't afford it going up, giving them an opportunity to ask for help and get the help that they need to be able to stay in Vermont, because that is the goal, especially with an aging population. We want people to stay here and thrive here. One of the ways I could see us really helping and funding with that, I am in support of, like, a progressive tax system where higher income individuals pay a higher tax rate.
Mikaela Lefrak: Are you referring there to a so-called wealth tax, increasing taxes on Vermonters who earn $500,000 or more, or increasing taxes on people who earn less than $500,000 as well?
Esther Charlestin: I would say $500,000 or more, yes.
Mikaela Lefrak: We also got a question from Ralph in Essex Junction, who is hoping to hear about some actionable steps that the gubernatorial candidates could take before the next town meeting day to prevent the same type of property tax increases that we experienced this year. And Ralph requests here, please don't suggest study groups, committee referrals or other generalities, only actionable steps you will take.
Esther Charlestin: So once again, I would absolutely give folks credit who need it. They can apply to programs to ask for assistance. Again, the progressive taxing system that would make a difference would be a start, of course, not sustainable, but a start, to get us to a place where we can have a sustainable plan. Because right now, the way we fund education, it's not sustainable, and we need a new formula, so making sure we figure out what the best formula is and how do we get relief for people now would be a focus.
Mikaela Lefrak: You brought up housing earlier. Let's hone into that a bit more. A Burlington resident who works with people experiencing homelessness wrote to us and said that not only have they seen an increase in need at their organization, but they are now struggling to find affordable housing for themselves. Regarding homelessness in Vermont, do you think the state should reinstate the motel voucher program that it recently cut funds from as soon as this winter? And if so, how should it pay for it?
Esther Charlestin: I would say it would be a start. I believe in a housing first approach, really getting folks housed. Winter is coming. We feel the temperatures dropping even in the evenings, 55, and to know that in our communities, there are families, children in tents. I think of Middlebury, because I would be in the library, there's like a small tent community, there in the back, and people don't have a place to go, and so putting them out on the street, especially when winter is coming, is not okay. So yes, housing first approach, and making sure that we have emergency shelters where we can provide mental health care, substance abuse treatment, and of course, empowering folks to get housing and stay in the house that they have so that it can be permanent would be important.
Mikaela Lefrak: But to go back to the motel voucher programming, the Democratic majority legislature has agreed to start continually cutting this program down to reduce costs. It was initially funded in large part by the federal government and money that came in during the pandemic. So are you saying that you disagree with the legislature's decision to cut funds from this program?
Esther Charlestin: I believe that housing first is important, so putting them out on the street right now is actually creating more problems, because the fund, the spending, doesn't go away. Right now, the burden is on communities, it’s on school districts. People rallying to get tents together for families, and the communities are feeling those pressures so the cost doesn't go away. Emergency rooms are feeling that pressure, and it's important that we care for the people here, and especially those who don't have
Mikaela Lefrak: I want to ask you another follow up question from something that you brought up during our primary debate. It was about the housing crisis, and you said that in my administration, we would be committed to supporting changes in zoning policies and to help remove those barriers. Gov. Phil Scott has criticized the Act 250 reforms that were passed by the legislature this year as not going far enough to make it easier to build in rural downtowns. I'm curious what you think. Do you think that that bill went far enough?
Esther Charlestin: I believe that bill is a start. It's a start, but we need more, right? We need more work.
Mikaela Lefrak Sorry, would you have would you have vetoed it like Gov. Scott? I just want to be clear, if you think it went far enough.
Esther Charlestin: Okay, yes, I don't believe it went far enough, and no, I wouldn't have vetoed it. I would have had that conversation beforehand with folks about, okay, how do we make it go even further? Would be my approach.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, let's move on to another big topic that we heard about from our Citizens Agenda, and that is climate change, energy and the environment. To address concerns around the warming climate, the Vermont legislature passed what's called the Global Warming Solutions Act, and it has these legally binding emission reductions requirements in it. We got an email from a listener named Anne in Williston who asks, What will you do to ensure that Vermont meets the Act's emission reductions requirements?
Esther Charlestin: Yes, so I would have programs to help with the overall energy demand. I would, really my administration and I would really work on making sure electric vehicles– I know the governor spoke earlier about having an electric vehicle— well, making sure that everybody has the option to transition if they want to. And so that would be huge. Our public transportation, making sure that that is strong and not only in the cities but in rural areas, making sure that they have the support that they need to get across so getting more people off the roads. Thinking about weatherization programs, programs that make homes and buildings more energy efficient, making sure folks have access to these programs and that they know about it, because a lot of folks don't know.
Mikaela Lefrak: I'm curious to hear more about one thing you just said increasing access to public transportation in rural areas. That has been something that Vermont has struggled with. It can cost a lot of money to try to expand public transportation systems in places where there's low population. Can you tell me a bit more about your vision for that and how you would go about achieving it?
Esther Charlestin: Yeah, I would start, so we probably would not have the big busses, but more so the smaller busses, and making sure we would have a schedule that, and working with the town what are the needs, and then really figuring out how to support them and their needs. So that means people going to the hospitals or what have you, that they are able to access that. So it would, it would take some time. I'm working together with the different communities, but I believe it's important, and one will make a priority.
Mikaela Lefrak: One more question about the climate here. We had a whole program yesterday about the Affordable Heat Act and the Clean Heat Standard. There's lots of very intense feelings about it from both sides right now. One thing that I find interesting is that [for] lower income households, studies show they use less energy and have lower carbon footprints than more affluent households do, and therefore helping them electrify isn't necessarily the most cost effective way to reduce emissions for Vermont overall. But the Affordable Heat Act, it requires that roughly a third of clean heat credits come from work that serves low and moderate income households. It's one of the parts of the Affordable Heat Act that continues to be debated. I'm curious what your thoughts are. Do you think that part of the law is flawed?
Esther Charlestin: As I think about how much oil cost, I think making that transition to electrifying would be cheaper, as I used to pay for oil for our house, and it is not pretty until that comes and plus, it's a sacrifice. So what it means is they might not have the heat running all the time, right? So the lower cost is because during the day, there's no heat in the house, but at night, so you come home to a freezing house, but at night you may and some people go without. So I think making it easier for folks to transition is important and they have the option. The goal is for them to have the option.
Mikaela Lefrak: Now, Esther Charlestin, you have criticized Gov. Scott in the past for vetoing policies, many policies passed by the Democratic majority legislature, but Vermonters do continue to elect him time and again. He's running for a fifth term right now, and many have told us that they appreciate the balance that he's bringing to the legislative process in Vermont, so I'm curious about how you would approach your role and the relationship with the legislature. If it does remain a Democratic supermajority, are there any policies from recent legislative sessions that you would have vetoed or if elected? Do you think you would work in lockstep with that Democratic legislature?
Esther Charlestin: Well, my approach would be very different. I would work on building a relationship, work on collaboration, work on negotiation and compromise, finding win-win solutions, and that looks like having regular meetings with folks, having open communication, and having a presence, and letting them know that I'm reachable and we want to work together. I think with that approach, we can get a lot more done.
Mikaela Lefrak: Let's dive in a little bit deeper to one topic that you brought up earlier, which was education, that we haven't gotten into too much. Vermont has among the highest per pupil spending rates in America. You're a former employee of Middlebury Middle School, so I'm curious from your perspective on the ground in Vermont's school system, if you've witnessed any areas of education spending that you think could be cut, or do you think the current price tag of education is sustainable?
Esther Charlestin: What comes to mind for me is, what are we paying for? Of course, I understand that we pay for vouchers for people to be able to send their kids to school in other countries. So, I would explore that. What I've seen in our public schools is that we're really doing the best we can with what we have, right. And a lot of folks have lost their jobs over the past year when I think about the budget cuts. So a lot more people are holding so much and juggling so much to really meet the needs of our students. A huge part of my job was discipline, right? And I had two behavioral interventionists who helped run the office, and we were called to different places, and it was so helpful to have that support, to really meet the needs of the students, especially the students who needed maybe to step out of class or what have you. So what I saw firsthand, no, I don't think we should be cutting staff support, because teachers aren't going anywhere. And the admin, we definitely need to help make sure it goes round. I believe we need to look at what we're spending the money on, and I would point out the vouchers.
Mikaela Lefrak: So you've worked in the school system, and you've also formally served as a Middlebury Selectboard member. It was your last political post. What would you say to Vermonters, who might agree with your values and your policy proposals but worry that you lack that on the ground political experience to serve as governor and oversee thousands of state employees?
Esther Charlestin: Absolutely. Thank you for that question. I would say, honestly, I've gotten to where I am because I've learned to identify some incredible experts in their field, and I've learned to bring people together. And even in the work I do now as an educational consultant, I help people have hard conversations and sit through it. The good news is I won't be leading alone, right? The governor has a cabinet. So who would I bring together to really help us make informed decisions, to make Vermont a great state for all of us so we can all thrive. And by that I mean those who are the one percent to the ones who are homeless, and making sure that everybody's considered in making this state great. So I know how to bring people together and experts together and really work together with folks to get us to a great place. And that is a strength that I believe would make a world of a difference.
Mikaela Lefrak: Esther Charlestin is Democrat Progressive from Middlebury running for governor. Esther Charlestin, thank you so much for joining us today.
Esther Charlestin: Thank you.
Kevin Hoyt
Mikaela Lefrak: Welcome back to Vermont Edition, I’m Mikaela Lefrak. Today’s show is part of our series of debates and candidate interviews ahead of the November 5th general election. Today we are hearing from three candidates for Vermont Governor. Our third and final candidate today is Independent Kevin Hoyt of Bennington. He’s previously run for governor, and seats in the Vermont House and Vermont Senate. Kevin Hoyt, welcome to Vermont Edition.
Kevin Hoyt: Hey, Mikaela, thank you very much for having me.
Mikaela Lefrak: We’re glad to have you. Let's start, as we did with Governor Scott and Esther Charleston, with affordability a major issue that we heard about time and again through our Citizens Agenda approach to election coverage here at Vermont Public, a listener named Jeremy wrote in to us about their property taxes going up $1,200 in a year. The cost of food and gas increasing, and they're feeling like Vermont is only a place for the wealthy. What can be done to decrease these burdens of inflation and taxation?
Kevin Hoyt: Well, right now, from the you know, the other candidates and legislation in general, I'm hearing a lot of the blame game. I'm hearing a lot of we need more money, but no real policy or solutions. Per the Center for Public Integrity, Vermont scored number one once again, three years in a row in corruption. I don't know if people have checked out. There's a viral video going around right now, they ruined my hometown. It's about Burlington by a gentleman named Peter Santenello. Again, I think corruption is a big problem. I think you're not the problem because you're made out of carbon. I think they're the problem and we cannot afford our corrupt government anymore.
Mikaela Lefrak: Uh, sorry. Can you clarify what you're saying there? The part about some people will be made of carbon and they're not the problem, but other people are sure.
Kevin Hoyt: Well, again, I believe that's, you know, part of the Global Warming Solutions Act, and I think it's another, well, it's misguided to say the very least. But the problem is it's insustainable [SIC] what we have right now, and it's your government had one job, and it was to protect you. Do you feel protected? Do you feel represented? You know, maybe I should start by saying that I don't want to govern anyone. I don't think everybody listening to this. You guys are Vermonters. You're great people. You don't need me or Phil Scott or anybody to tell you what to do. What we need is to govern this out of control system. All systems are crashing right now, from education to taxation to again. The problem is they're overzealous, frivolous spending, lack of accountability and corruption in general. It's the cost of living. You want to cut the cost of living. Here's some new words for you. You don't hear from politicians, tax break, tax cut. Here's another one, return on investment, right? These guys, again, they think their job is to think of ways to, you know, spend your money and how to come up with new laws to restrict you. I think our problem is our government. So my goal is to get a grip on the corruption that's sweeping, you know, from massive election fraud to embezzlement and money laundering to - I'm a reporting party for our multi state, federal Rico investigation, and I've got a lot of questions for Phil Scott, our other legislators, but then there never seems to be a venue or an opportunity for the people to actually ask these questions.
Mikaela Lefrak: I want to be clear about the type of corruption that you're pointing to. Are you saying that you think that there's an election fraud going on in Vermont?
Kevin Hoyt: Yeah, my venture started in 2018 again, we mentioned Governor Phil Scott, the most popular, you know, governor in the history of the United States. Well, it helped that we had 102% turnout. We had more ballots than legal age voters.
Mikaela Lefrak: Where's that data coming from?
Kevin Hoyt: That's again, from the Center for Public Integrity, right, from all these election. Vermont doesn't even handle our own elections. They're done out of LHS management, out of Salem, New Hampshire, I released over 500 fraudulent names in a county of 5500 people, and that was just the a's and the b's. And even better than the crime, we got the cover up right and two documents and their letterhead and their words with their signatures on the bottom, no one even looked at any of the election fraud. So, you know this, this, I think this is -
Mikaela Lefrak: I just want to jump in here, because we have had the Secretary of State on Vermont Edition numerous times who we've asked her about election fraud. She says there's no evidence of any sort of wide scale election fraud that's been going on. Are you saying that those election officials are lying?
Kevin Hoyt: Absolutely. In fact, James Condos, I believe, not only is he responsible for all the matching EIN numbers we live in a society of shell companies, right for embezzlement and money laundering, but he's also responsible for elections. So first of all, we wouldn't want the Secretary of State to check themselves, would we? That's a bad idea. So the Secretary of State is administrative agency. It always falls back to your board of civil authority and your local town clerks. And what do you know? We couldn't get our elected officials to look at election fraud, and even if we could -
Mikaela Lefrak: So you’re saying that Vermont shouldn't trust its local town clerks either,
Kevin Hoyt: I'll repeat I released over 500 names in a county of 5500 people. That was just the A's and half the B's. Okay,
Mikaela Lefrak: well, I don't want to go too, too deep on this issue.
Kevin Hoyt: We can. We can go just from, you know, the fact, remember, we used to have election day instead of election months.
Mikaela Lefrak: So you're saying you do not agree that Vermont should have early voting?
Kevin Hoyt: I do not. I think mail in ballots are, you know, a ridiculous practice. In fact, this is why we have more ballots than legal age voters. That's a problem for me.
Mikaela Lefrak: Is that something you would take action about if you were elected governor, to get rid of absolutely early voting?
Kevin Hoyt: Absolutely, I think they already are. I think that's why James Condos is no longer with us again. Vermont doesn't handle our own elections. They're all done. Vermont and another eight states out of the LHS out of Salem New Hampshire was their subsidiary of Dominion, right? So again, I think the corruption, again, is a major, a major things, if you want to go right into the cut and dry, because I'm not here at any policies out of anybody else, but I have, you know, four executive orders. Number one is term limits. I plan on executive order writing myself and all of them out of a job, because I don't see them voting themselves out. We need to make sure this accumulation of wealth and power never happens again. I like Bobby Kennedy's idea to ban poison farming practices. Why do we have poison farming practices to start with? But the aerosol spraying?
Mikaela Lefrak: Can I just jump in here? Because I want to make sure that listeners have context for a number of the things that you're listing off here. Specifically, you've brought James Condos. You're referring to Jim Condos, Vermont Secretary of State, who retired a couple years ago after 35 years in Vermont government. You said he was no longer with us. So I just want to be clear that he retired.
Kevin Hoyt: I don't believe he retired. And again, this is where we can get into it. Mikaela, but again, let's -
Mikaela Lefrak: Can we move on? I'd love to move on. Rather than speculating about what Jim Condos is doing.
Kevin Hoyt: Well we can talk about evidence if you want to get into evidence. Again, we have matching EIN numbers, illegal matching EIN numbers. So, the Vermont Sheriff's Association.
Mikaela Lefrak: Can I ask you about housing, because that's an issue that our listeners asked us to ask you about, not EIN numbers or voter fraud. It did not come up in our citizens as often as other issues.
Kevin Hoyt: I was going to give you example -
Mikaela Lefrak: I feel like we covered it. So can we move on now to housing? So I want to ask you the same questions that I asked the other candidates and housing was a major topic. The motel voucher program used to pay for many hundreds of Vermonters to stay in motels and hotels. That program has been cut recently. It was a cost cutting measure by the Vermont legislature. Do you think that Vermont should continue to cut the motel voucher program to reduce those costs or reinstate it and figure out a way to pay for it.
Kevin Hoyt: Well, this is a very complicated issue, but again, I do believe we need to put people in hotels. We have people that are starving and dying on our streets. So people, first, we have to take care of them. But again, we go back to that cost of living and the taxes, the fact that your property taxes just quadrupled, right? The fact that we're paying $39,000 per student per the education racket, right? You guys are being robbed out there. And again, it's amazing to me that you're not interested in any of the evidence of corruption, but this --
Mikaela Lefrak: I gave you time to discuss it, and then decided to move on to a different again,
Kevin Hoyt: I think housing again. It goes back to the cost of living and our unaffordable government. In fact, we've got a lot of vacant buildings going on. You know, all throughout Vermont, we call them our official buildings, right? Montpelier is pretty hollow. The Secretary of State, you just mentioned, she won't call me back like the attorney general. The second one, TJ Donovan, I think, was removed also, but there's no -
Mikaela Lefrak: He got a new job. He was not removed from office.
Kevin Hoyt: They're locked. The Secretary of State's building is locked, just like the Bennington Police Department, right? We have a lot of missing officials, over 150 --
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, a number of official buildings in Montpelier were damaged by the floods and have not yet reopened.
Kevin Hoyt: This was before that. It was covid, worker shortages, supply chains, you know. So again, this is the corruption.
Mikaela Lefrak: I don’t think I know. I don’t want you to imply that.
Kevin Hoyt: Well, we should have actual interviews. But the question again, regarding housing is, I do believe we need to house the homeless, and again, this incredible, growing homeless population that we have, right are, you can blame your legislator, you can you can blame, you know, the, I say, the 50-60, years of Democrat super majority, if you want to get into it and look at it, when are the people going to take
Mikaela Lefrak: There hasn't been a 50 or 60 years of democratic super majority. I think that the super majority just occurred recently. There was a Democratic majority prior.
Kevin Hoyt: The late 60s until the mid 90s. In fact, Ralph Wright the longest Speaker of the House in Democrat history. He's also one of my friends, and his son is also a federally deposed rico, you know, reporter. Rico, racketeering. We've all been racketeered Mikaela. These EINS that you don't want to talk about.
Mikaela Lefrak: I gave you your time to talk about voter fraud, and now would like to move on to other topics that are from our Citizens Agenda that listeners brought up. That I asked the other candidates about. I want to make sure that I'm asking you the same questions that I asked to our other candidates.
Kevin Hoyt: If you want to fix the housing you have to fix the tax fraud, the bank fraud, the corruption within our own government.
Mikaela Lefrak: Let's move on to climate change. As I mentioned earlier to the other candidates, the Vermont legislature passed the Global Warming Solutions Act, which created legally binding emission reductions requirements. We got a question from Anne in Williston, who wants to hear from each of the candidates about what you will do to ensure that Vermont meets the Act’s emission reduction requirements. I'm also hoping that you could start with what you think of the Global Warming Solutions Act itself.
Kevin Hoyt: I think it should be repealed. I think it's, you know, impossible. I think these people don't know what they're asking for. Climate change is very, very real. The climate is changing because it's being manipulated and engineered. It's called geoengineering. It's not even a hard search. People should research the dimming documentary. Again, back to my executive orders. I plan on adding, I think what is there, eight or nine states right now that are banning the poisoning of their citizens, aerosol spraying, geoengineering, chemtrails for people. They're building our skies right with aluminum burial [sic]—
Mikaela Lefrak: Chemtrails is a debunked conspiracy theory.
Kevin Hoyt: No, it's not a debunk. They actually admit it. But I'd love to have an interview with you guys. And again, Bobby Kennedy, right, is going to ban along with the other eight states. It's amazing, Mikaela, why would eight states be banning something that doesn't exist?
Mikaela Lefrak: What exactly are they banning? They're not banning—
Kevin Hoyt: Aerosol spraying, the poisoning of their citizens.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, I don't think anyone's saying that aerosol sprays don't exist.
Kevin Hoyt: Look it. I'm an environmentalist, a humanitarian, and I've been a lifelong conservationist. You want to talk about the environment in green, the solutions they're providing are not green. They're very, very bad for the earth, right? In the meantime, this is another government created problem. The solution is to restrict you and then tax you more. This is CCP, you know, engineered propaganda, the green energy lie. Again, it's changing because it's being engineered, and that's very well documented. Mr. Kennedy has a lot to say on it, but a lot of other people do too. It's not even a hard search.
Mikaela Lefrak: Can we get back to our listener’s question about ensuring that Vermont meets emission reduction requirements? I heard you said that you don't agree that Vermont should have reduction requirements. Do you think that people in Vermont in the United States should be trying to reduce their emissions in order to address global warming?
Kevin Hoyt: I do think there's other solutions, but it's stuff you, I've seen engines that run on water. I've seen engines that run on air, right? The problem is that doesn't fit into their system. So I think we've got remarkable solutions coming for Vermont state and the nation, but the green energy lie is just that, a lie. Who thinks it's a good idea to put our entire transportation system on an already failing electrical grid, and the same people are making the money. You know, Gov. Phil Scott and his electric truck, right? He didn't tell you that he paid way too much to start with. That was a bad decision, Phil. On top of that, it weighs about twice as much as your average vehicle, so we're going to have to, you know, put in all new roads and bridges. This is a long term loss. You guys remember the Industrial Revolution?
Mikaela Lefrak: I’m going to bring us back because we have a couple more questions for you. We're speaking with independent gubernatorial candidate Kevin Hoyt. Kevin, in July, you were arrested on outstanding warrants for three cases of intentionally violating a stalking order against a former state representative. You argued in court that restraining orders violate your first amendment rights. Do you believe that restraining orders themselves are unconstitutional?
Kevin Hoyt: Oh, no, absolutely not. I think there's great reasons for restraining orders. You guys have to actually go back and look at that now. I love that you brought it up, Mikaela because my crime was trying to report felony gun crimes and other capital crimes by our officials. So what that did is it got me a court order because our courts are complicit–
Mikaela Lefrak: And just to be clear, there is no there's no proof of that crime. I don't want you to use this platform to make an unsubstantiated claim against another Vermonter.
Kevin Hoyt: I've got video evidence of a House of Representative who's passing gun control for Vermonters while violating felony gun law himself.
Mikaela Lefrak: I don’t want you to use this platform to make those claims you have already been brought to court–
Kevin Hoyt: –because I did it got me a court order, Mikaela–
Mikaela Lefrak: I’m worried that this is going to become a platform for another one, Kevin Hoyt. I do want to move on because I—
Kevin Hoyt: —you asked me a question, you should let me answer it. So the court said that I couldn't verbally say a name, and I absolutely could not share evidence of these crimes. So I believe in the First Amendment, freedom of speech and freedom of the press, so I shared that. That got me a warrant for violating the no stalking order, right? Meanwhile, this gentleman who I can't name because I'd violate– he's got a 19 page criminal NCIC record, multiple batteries on women and law enforcement. He held his wife hostage with a shotgun.
Mikaela Lefrak: What would you say to Vermonters who look at your relationship with this former state representative and worry about how you would conduct yourself with legislators if you were elected governor? This is clearly a very contentious relationship.
Kevin Hoyt: Well, it is because I don't believe in corruption. I think these people are taking advantage of you, the good people of Vermont, I think they're robbing you blind. And I would love to get into policy. I don't know if we're going to have actual time.
Mikaela Lefrak: I've asked you a number of questions about policy.
Kevin Hoyt: Okay, well, again, I've got a way out of the opioid crisis. You guys want a huge boost of economic growth and development. We should look at that, a way out, a proven way out. I think people should look at that. Education is simple, right? First of all, we get the state out of education, along with the Chinese core curriculum. We give rights back to the parents, and it's as simple as charter school, private school, and home school, and the money follows the student. But we gotta get these ridiculous, you know, costs down. Again, the cost of living, the corruption, your taxes, your criminal government, all these matching EIN numbers—
Mikaela Lefrak: I’d like to just give you one more chance to answer my final question, and then we will be out of time. What would you say to Vermonters who look at your relationship with this former state representative and they worry about how you would conduct yourself in Montpelier if you were elected governor?
Kevin Hoyt: I think I would conduct myself in a similar standpoint. If I see corruption in crimes by our officials, I'm going to call it out. I think it's time for accountability in this state. I think it's time to give the government back to the people and stop the corruption. That's going to take care of again, maybe I'll let you keep some of your own money, right? We've got it. We're going to legalize plant medicine. I think we need to become a Second Amendment sanctuary state so you can actually defend your family and your property because your government's not doing a good job. We need these political agendas out of our school system. We gotta look at fire education. We absolutely have to take a look at voting, right, and that, you know, complete and epic failure. There's a problem—
Mikaela Lefrak: We are out of time. Kevin Hoyt is an—
Kevin Hoyt: I appreciate your time, Mikaela.
Mikaela Lefrak: —an independent candidate for governor from Bennington. Kevin, thanks for your time.
This coverage is part of Vermont Public’s Citizens Agenda approach to election coverage. We’re asking a simple question: What do you want the candidates to be discussing as they compete for your votes? Front Porch Forum is our lead outreach partner for this project.
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