Brave Little State is Vermont Public’s listener-powered journalism podcast. Every episode begins with a question submitted by our audience.
Today, we answer these questions from Gina Accorsi of Milton:
“How common is childlessness in Vermont today? Is there a support system or community acceptance here for childless adults?”
Note: Our show is made for the ear. We highly recommend listening to the audio. We’ve also provided a transcript. Transcripts are generated using a combination of robots and human transcribers, and they may contain errors.
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Nina Keck: If you really want to have children of your own, how do you come to terms with a life without them? This question cuts close to the bone for more people than you think, and frankly, it’s not something people talk about publicly.
Ananda Boyer: It is very private.
Kat Mayerovitch: Yeah, definitely. It gets awkward.
Ananda Boyer: It’s not something people talk about even though it’s so common. Part of that is because of how hard it is, right?
Kat Mayerovitch: Really, really difficult.
Erica Bove: It's been described as an existential crisis.
Kat Mayerovitch: It stinks!
Kim Butterfield: There's a biological kind of mechanism that goes off and all of a sudden you just really want that baby.
Erica Bove: I think there's a lot that's at stake when somebody realizes that they can't get pregnant, they can’t have children.
Kat Mayerovitch: I think the hardest thing is you have to build a new picture of what your life is gonna be.
Gina Accorsi: So, you'll never take your kids to school or teach ’em how to play hockey, or, you know, watch them grow up.
Kat Mayerovitch: I always thought that my life would be being a mom, and I would have kids, and we would do family things.
Kate Weldon LeBlanc: You know, if you ask many people who are parenting, “What is the single most important part of your life?” They say: Being a parent. And so, then imagine not being able to do that. And it isn't hard to see how this could be really an earth-shattering experience, emotionally.
Erica Bove: I think we need to do better to understand all the reasons for childlessness. Some are by choice, some are by circumstance. Like, that “choice” is such a loaded term.
In search of answers
Nina Keck: Hi!
(door opening)
Gina Accorsi: Welcome.
Nina Keck: Thanks!
Gina Accorsi: Come on in.
Nina Keck: Every episode of Brave Little State begins with a question from a listener. Today, that listener is Gina Accorsi.
Gina Accorsi: So, my name is Gina Accorsi and I live in Milton. My question is, how common is childlessness in Vermont today? Is there a support system or community acceptance here for childless adults?
Nina Keck: Because decisions about whether or not to have kids are so personal, I want to talk face-to-face. So I meet Gina at her house in Milton, which is tucked in a really pretty spot between farm fields and woods.
Nina Keck: So how much land do you have?
Gina Accorsi: Yeah, so we live on an acre. Oh, there’s our neighbor Will. So, they’re doing sap buckets right now.
Nina Keck: Oh wow!
Nina Keck: Gina and her husband bought the farmhouse in 2019 and they love how rural it is.
Gina Accorsi: Yeah, I like gardening out here and taking the dogs on hikes. There's a lot of trails, even, you can see one right in the backyard, like, up the hill.
Nina Keck: Gina is 33. When she and her husband met 10 years ago, they were focused on school, then their careers. Having kids was never one of their goals.
When they got married in 2020, they agreed they didn’t want to have children. But as we all know, people can change their minds.
Gina did, but her husband did not.
Gina Accorsi: I would like to have, um, a child, grow, grow, our family, be a mom. But it is not in the cards for me.
Nina Keck: Partner disagreements are one of many causes for what’s known as involuntary childlessness. We’ll get more into terminology later because it’s loaded.
But Gina says she’s come to realize that giving up on a marriage to a man she loves deeply and starting over to have a child with someone else or by herself is not something she wants to do.
Gina Accorsi: Yeah, it’s scary, a little, to talk about it.
Nina Keck: Having made that decision, now she’s grieving the loss of a path she can’t take and looking for support as she charts a new one.
Gina Accorsi: I think sometimes with childlessness it can be hard to find community. I think there's a lot of very, like, private hardship that happens. And so it's hard to know, um, who else maybe is out there like that. Like, to know it's not just you. And then when you're seeking help, it can be hard to know where to look and how to ask with something that is so private-feeling.
Nina Keck: When Gina looked online, she found social media influencers, meditation guides for childlessness and podcasts — lots of podcasts.
Joyce Harper: And it is a very great pleasure today to speak with Jody Day about childlessness.
Laura Bignasco: This is Happy Childless Mindset podcast.
Helen Gallagher: I will spend up to my 42nd birthday single and childless. Wow, how did that happen?
Nina Keck: None of these resources resonated with Gina — at least, not in any lasting way.
Gina Accorsi: For me, it was kind of like if you go through a break up and you eat ice cream.
Nina Keck: It may make you feel better for a little while, but the ice cream doesn’t help with your problem.
Gina Accorsi: Like, I didn't feel very uplifted by it. But I did feel a little bit like, OK, there are other, some other people somewhere out there.
Nina Keck: Except actually finding those people out there — finding that in-person support — it proved difficult.
Gina Accorsi: I, I didn't succeed at that.
Nina Keck: She followed her therapist’s suggestion to join a local grief support group. Gina found one, but it was for people who’d lost loved ones — and the group politely told her no.
Gina Accorsi: Not like my grief wasn't enough or valid or something, but it wasn't, like, the right kind of grief, I guess, for that? And so I’m like, alright, this isn’t my community, that’s OK. But where do I fit into this? Where can I go? Yeah.
Nina Keck: So, dear listeners, Gina turned to us to find support, answers and advice on childlessness — yeah, ironically, another podcast.
Gina Accorsi: I believe in Brave Little State, I know you guys can do it. And I thank you, because I feel a little braver for having asked and talked to you about it.
How common is childlessness in Vermont?
Nina Keck: This episode about having kids, or not having kids, is really personal. But the first part of Gina’s question is more data driven: How common is childlessness in Vermont today?
So, let’s jump in there.
Kevin Chu: I'll start by saying Gina is not alone, and actually she is a very common case in Vermont.
Nina Keck: This is Kevin Chu, Executive Director of the Vermont Futures Project — a non-partisan think tank researching the economic implications of the state’s changing demographics.
According to census data and the Vermont Department of Health, 72% of Vermonters don’t have kids under the age of 18 at home. But that number includes empty nesters in addition to people who’ve never had children — not the same thing.
Vermont’s Department of Health doesn’t track the number of Vermonters who specifically have never had kids, but Kevin says it’s trending up.
Kevin Chu: The proportion of people that do not have children at home has been growing in Vermont. And one indicator is the declining fertility rate. So that, over a longer period of time, as that falls, means fewer and fewer households have children.
Nina Keck: Vermont leads the nation when it comes to not having babies — really. We have the lowest fertility rate in the country.
How low? According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,Vermont has 44.3 births per 1,000 women of childbearing age — that’s 20% fewer than South Dakota, which leads the fertility pack, along with Nebraska and Alaska.
But it’s not just Vermonters who are having fewer babies. University of New Hampshire Demographer Ken Johnson says since 2007, the U.S. birthrate has dropped almost 17%.
Ken Johnson: Even though there are about 8% more women of childbearing age. So we're getting fewer births, significantly fewer births, even though there are more women in their childbearing years to have those babies.
Nina Keck: There are a lot of explanations for this, like infertility, especially rising male infertility — something people rarely mention. According to recent data from Pew Research, Americans as a whole are rethinking whether they even want to become parents. A growing number are opting not to for a whole lot of reasons: the high cost of raising a child, a lack of affordable housing and daycare, climate change, career conflicts, no partner — and some just don’t want to have kids.
Unfortunately, we don’t have state-level data, so I can’t tell Gina exactly how many Vermonters have never had a child. But Kevin Chu and Ken Johnson say she may be part of a larger community in the state than she realizes.
Ken Johnson: I think that’s quite likely that that’s the case.
Kevin Chu: Yeah, she’s not an outlier.
_
The politics of being childless
Nina Keck: Gina may be comforted by the fact that she’s not alone. But the country’s shrinking birth rate is worrying conservative politicians.
JD Vance: We’re effectively run in this country via the Democrats, via our corporate oligarchs, by a bunch of childless cat ladies who are miserable at their own lives and the choices that they’ve made.
Nina Keck: This is JD Vance holding nothing back as he campaigned for Senate in 2021.
JD Vance: … AOC, the entire future of the Democrats is controlled by people without children.
Nina Keck: Our question-asker, Gina, says comments like those and others she’s been hearing have worried her. Is she going to be judged if she doesn’t have kids?
Gina Accorsi: There's, like, a larger political rhetoric right now, right, about a woman's value and, you know, if somebody is a mom. You know, certain people expect women to be moms. And if we aren't moms, then what value do we bring to our communities?
Marie Saavedra: Have a baby and get $5,000 for it? That is just one of the ideas that the Trump administration is reportedly tossing around to get birth rates up. The New York Times is reporting there are ideas on the table like a “National Medal of Motherhood” for women with six children or more.
Donald Trump: I’ll be known as the fertilization president. (Laughter) That’s not bad. That’s not bad.
Nina Keck: I’ve been hearing a lot lately about the political movement behind this push for motherhood and traditional gender roles. It’s called pro-natalism.
The conservative politicians behind it want to jumpstart American fertility with government incentives — perks that childless individuals and low birth rate states like Vermont may lose out on.
I reached out to professor Laurie Essig. She directs gender, sexuality and feminist studies at Middlebury College. She says that while more people are opting not to have kids, Gina may face more pushback being childless today than 10 or 15 years ago.
Laurie Essig: I think there's no doubt that the country and much of the world has taken this turn to being afraid of anything that might disrupt traditional gender hierarchies, whether that's abortion rights or not having children.
Stigma and support
Nina Keck: OK, so fertility in the U.S. is down. Vermont’s fertility rate is actually the lowest of the low. And the fear and stigma surrounding that drop is being politicized.
I’ve also learned from reporting on this episode that people who don’t have kids don’t all fall into the same category. And semantics matter.
Erica Bove: Child-free, childless…
Kate Weldon LeBlanc: A lot of people now are choosing to be child-free.
Erica Bove: Is it, you know, childless by choice? What does “choice” mean? Childless by circumstance?
Nina Keck: That’s Dr. Erica Bove, of UVM Medical Center.
Erica Bove: I'm a double board certified OBGYN and fertility specialist.
Nina Keck: Before that, you heard the voice of Kate Weldon LeBlanc, Executive Director of AllPaths Family Building, a Massachusetts-based nonprofit.
Kate Weldon LeBlanc: We provide emotional support, educational resources and advocacy that are available for anyone that's struggling with fertility and family building.
Nina Keck: Kate, Erica and everyone I interviewed for this episode say it doesn’t matter if someone is child-free and happy about it or childless and grieving when it comes to stigma. It’s still there. And friends, family, even strangers feel like they can weigh in.
Erica Bove: You know, my very Catholic parents, what are they going to say?
Chelsea Oclatis: Awkward conversations of being at a dinner party and someone saying, like, “Oh, are you guys trying yet?”
Erica Bove: Well-meaning but insensitive people who just say the absolute worst things.
Kat Mayerovitch: Someone said to me, “Not everyone is meant to be a parent.” Um … That was really really hard.
Nina Keck: Here’s a pro tip: If you want to support a friend or family member who is childless and grieving, Kate Weldon LeBlanc says skip the advice and definitely don’t say, “Why don’t you just adopt?”
Kate Weldon Leblanc: In my experience, you know, if you just say something to the effect of, this is or would be something that is very challenging. And we love you and we're so sorry you're going through something that is likely very challenging, and we love you and we're here for you in any way that we can help you.
Nina Keck: As for Gina’s hope of finding an in-person support group in Vermont — I failed, despite calling lots of people in different parts of the state. Like Chelsea Oclatis. She’s the nurse manager at Maitri Health Care for Women in South Burlington, and we ended up having a long conversation.
Chelsea Oclatis: So I think a support group would be a good idea, but I don't actually know of one that exists.
Nina Keck: Chelsea told me she can empathize with Gina’s situation of being at odds with her partner over whether to have kids.
Chelsea Oclatis: Everything is so variable of where you are in your life, who you are with in your life, who you surround yourself with. But yeah, it is a really hard predicament.
Nina Keck: She's just said many times that she doesn't really know what box she fits into, where she can find support.
Chelsea Oclatis: Right, right. Hmm. Can I ask all the other nurses in the room if any of them have any thoughts?
Nina Keck: I'd be appreciative of that. Yeah. Please do.
Chelsea Oclatis: OK, hold on one second.
(Silence)
Chelsea Oclatis: Alright, unfortunately, no one's heard of anything. But everyone said that's crazy that we haven't thought of that, or that that doesn’t exist. And it is actually really making me think about, like, do we talk to patients more at annual exam appointments? Or, you know, are you happy with your family structure? Or, you know, like, it's, how does that conversation come up in a doctor's office that you're feeling like you want support in this area?
A dream ‘you can grow into’
Nina Keck: We’re ready to go. I’m recording. Well, thank you for meeting me in person.
Kat Mayerovitch: Oh, absolutely.
Nina Keck: Short of an official support group, I at least wanted to find someone who could relate to what Gina is going through. Brave Little State posted a callout on Reddit, and I ended up connecting with Kat.
Kat Mayerovitch: I'm Kat Mayerovitch and I live in White River Junction.
Nina Keck: She’s 42 and while her childless story is different from Gina’s, I think she’s exactly the kind of person that Gina’s hoping to meet.
Nina Keck: Ignore my microphone, I know it’s sort of off-putting.
Nina Keck: Kat and her husband got married in 2010, traveled all over and worked a bunch of different jobs. She was 30 when they began trying to get pregnant, but nothing happened.
Kat Mayerovitch: Normal, normal, normal. They never found out, um, they never found out what was going on.
Nina Keck: So you never understood why?
Kat Mayerovitch: No. And what I found out is that that's not uncommon.
Nina Keck: In vitro fertilization wasn’t something they wanted to pursue, so after eight years of trying, they gave up on having children.
Kat Mayerovitch: We’ve made our lives, you know, we've been through the frustration and the hurt and all of that, and we're OK now.
Nina Keck: How difficult was it for you to get to this point?
Kat Mayerovitch: Really, really difficult. (Laughter) Um…
Nina Keck: Because I think that's what Gina wants to know. She's in the thick of it. She wants to know, how do you get to the other side? How do you get through it?
Kat Mayerovitch: Yeah.
Nina Keck: And do you ever get through it?
Kat Mayerovitch: I think the hardest thing is you have to build a new picture of what your life is gonna be.
Nina Keck: I'm curious, Kat, when you and your husband are out at social gatherings now — cocktail party, work gathering, holiday this, neighborhood that — do people ask you, “Oh, do you have kids?” And if so, how does that question affect you now?
Kat Mayerovitch: It's fine now. I, I’ll say, I'll just say, “No,” lots of times, depending on the situation, or I'll say, um, you know, “Oh, we tried, but I just couldn't cook ‘em.” And laugh and then change the subject and it’s fine. Um, it's nice to kind of just get that out there and have it feel public and normal and be able to say that.
Nina Keck: I bring up Gina’s concern that other Vermonters might view her differently or judge her.
Kat Mayerovitch: I think there's not so much judgment, but there’s this kind of feeling that you're never quite a real adult. You know, like, you’re not quite grown up. You know, it’s the next stage of your adulthood. You know. You turn 18, you go to school, you whatever, you get married, you buy a house, you have kids. Right? And then there's this whole stage of adulthood that you've never reached, and everyone kind of leaves you behind.
Nina Keck: I ask Kat what advice she has for Gina and anyone listening who’s childless and grieving. And she suggests finding something to tend and nurture, whether it’s a pet or a garden.
Kat Mayerovitch: Find a dream that you can grow into. I don’t know. Start a business or hike the Appalachian Trail or write a book or whatever it is, find something, find a project that will take you years and years to grow into. Because that’s what a family is.
Nina Keck: Kat has oodles of great suggestions: Teach your neighbor how to bake. Share your bounty of strange trivia with a niece or nephew. Mentor at your local high school. Explain how you like to approach poetry with a writing group, or share your hiking, birdwatching or camping skills with a scouting troop.
And here’s the thing that Kat wants to underline and put in all caps: Childless adults can play an amazing role in their community.
Kat Mayerovitch: So when I was a teenager, my mom's best friend took me out for lunch one day. And she told me that if there was ever anything that I needed help with that I didn't want to tell my mom, I could tell her and she would help me, and she would not tell. And my mom knew she was doing this, And if I were ever drunk at a party, if I'd been arrested, if there was any, ever any reason I didn't feel comfortable going to my mom, I could go to her for anything, no questions asked, and she would not tell on me. And I always think about that, because there are some roles that parents cannot play. And it's so important to have someone else in the community who can be there for children in a way, besides their parents.
Nina Keck: In talking to Kat, I ask her how she navigated her grief early on — if the in-person support that Gina is looking for would have been helpful as she came to grips with childlessness.
Kat Mayerovitch: It's not something that I sought out, and I'm not sure why, now that I think about it. Why didn’t I ever look for that?
You know, there was definitely all of the communities around trying to get pregnant. Everyone's talking about their, you know, their period and their hormones, and their this, and their that and everything. And it’s— and then people either get pregnant or they just drop away and you never hear from them again.
Nina Keck: Oh.
Kat Mayerovitch: Because I feel like if you, if you join a group like that, then that means that you're accepting it. And it takes so long to— by the time you accept it, it’s almost like—
Nina Keck: Admitting defeat, maybe?
Kat Mayerovitch: Admitting defeat, and then you're almost past the point where you need the support. (Laughter) So it really is sort of a catch-22 in that way.
Nina Keck: Not to put you on the spot.
Kat Mayerovitch: Yeah.
Nina Keck: But if she were to reach out to you and say, “Would you have some time to talk to me?” Would you be open to that, or is it too personal?
Kat Mayerovitch: Just meeting, you know, getting together and talking — absolutely.
_
(Phone ringing)
Nina Keck: Bringing this all full circle, I call Gina to give her an update on the episode.
(Phone ringing)
Gina Accorsi: Hey Nina, how’s it going?
Nina Keck: I tell her how I struck out in my attempts to find any in-person support groups. But then I tell her about Kat — and that I think the two of them should meet.
Gina Accorsi: That would be very wonderful to get that insight because to have somebody tell me, like, it will be OK, like, you will find your way, even if it’s different than maybe the way you think you are right now, I would love that.
Nina Keck: Well great, then, um, I will pass on your information to her and her information to you and will leave it in your court to do with that what you will.
Gina Accorsi: Cool. That’s really nice that she was willing to do that and that you were willing to facilitate the connection. Thank you.
Nina Keck: Yeah.
Gina Accorsi: I look forward to hearing the episode, all the work you’ve done. Thanks for taking up the question.
Nina Keck: It was a great question. I’m really glad you asked it.
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Credits
This episode was reported by Nina Keck. Editing and production from the rest of the BLS team: Sabine Poux, Burgess Brown and Josh Crane. Our intern is Lucia McCallum. Angela Evancie is our Executive Producer. Theme music by Ty Gibbons; other music by Blue Dot Sessions.
Special thanks to Kim Butterfield, Felicia Kornbluh and Ananda Boyer.
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Brave Little State is a production of Vermont Public and a proud member of the NPR Network.
