We talk with the three candidates for Vermont attorney general on Monday as part of the station’s series of debates and candidate interviews ahead of the general election on Nov. 5.
Incumbent Attorney General Charity Clark, a Democrat, is running for her second term. She previously served as assistant attorney general and chief of staff in past Vermont administrations. The Republican candidate, Ture Nelson, is a longtime Berlin selectman, town administrator, and former federal investigator. The Green Mountain Peace and Justice Party nominee, Kevin Gustafson, is the founder and member-owner of Mountain View Law.
This episode also included a conversation about Canadian politics with a CBC correspondent Cathy Senay. She covers the Quebec government and politics at the National Assembly.
Transcript
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers and have been lightly edited for concision and clarity. They may contain errors, so please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
Charity Clark
Mitch Wertlieb: This is Vermont Edition. I'm Mitch Wertlieb in for Mikaela Lefrak. Today's show is part of our series of debates and candidate interviews ahead of the Nov. 5 general election, and today, we'll be joined by three candidates for attorney general. The position is responsible for advising state's attorneys and overseeing the enforcement of environmental, consumer protection and criminal laws. Each candidate will have about the same time to respond to questions. Today, we're hearing from Republican Ture Nelson and the Green Mountain Peace and Justice Party nominee Kevin Gustafson, but we'll start with the incumbent attorney general, Democrat Charity Clark. Clark won election in 2022 and made history doing so as the first woman in Vermont to be elected to the position. She was an assistant attorney general and chief of staff in previous Vermont administrations. Charity Clark, thank you so much for being with us today.
Charity Clark: Thanks for having me.
Mitch Wertlieb: Now if you're elected, I'm wondering, give us sort of a bullet point, what would be at the top of your priority list?
Charity Clark: Well, I think holding big corporations accountable, which is something I've been doing for the past two years since getting sworn in, would be a priority. This includes suing Meta and TikTok for harms perpetrated against Vermont's children. It includes suing Monsanto for contaminating Vermont's waterways, natural resources and schools, with their toxic chemical PCBs, also the pharmacy benefit managers who we recently sued, and of course, not a big corporation, but we did sue the FDA to make sure that the abortion drug mifepristone was accessible to Vermonters. That those kinds of lawsuits are going to be at the top of my list of priorities. I'm particularly interested in protecting Vermont's children. I have an eye towards Vermont's children, and that means holding, you know, big tech and big tobacco, and in some ways, you know, big chemical accountable for bad acts here in Vermont.
Mitch Wertlieb: And Vermont recently got some money from a tobacco settlement lawsuit. Is that right?
Charity Clark: That's right. It wasn't a lawsuit, we settled before the lawsuit came to be, which is the best way of handling things, and it was against Amazon. We have an online sales ban here in Vermont when it comes to tobacco products. You can't sell vaping products or any other products online, and Amazon was not doing enough to make sure that third-party sellers weren't violating that law. So we settled with them, it was just last week, for $400,000 and they also are changing the way they do things to make sure that their preventative measures are going to be effective.
Mitch Wertlieb: There's another issue that I know your office has been watching closely, and this deals with cyber crime, which has become a real problem. I mean, Vermont has lost $13 million due to cyber crime just last year. That's according to the Internet Crime and Complaint Center. What is the attorney general's office doing to protect consumers and raise awareness of ongoing scams?
Charity Clark: This has been a real focus for me since before I even became attorney general, this really relates to data privacy and issues that I think more and more Vermonters are becoming to understand as an issue. But there's so much of our data out there, and if there's ever a data breach, if there's a lot of data out there, you become vulnerable. So we have, in Vermont, and have had for like 15 years, the Security Breach Notification Act, and those notifications come to my office. I think the web page on our website where we have that information is one of the most visited web pages on our website, and we get a breach notification every -- more than one every day. So it's not a matter, for some businesses, it's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. So it's really critical that we are doing work, both from our office and with education, but also in the Legislature to make sure that a comprehensive data privacy bill makes it across the finish line, and we can begin to implement better practices when it comes to protecting people's data, so that if there is a breach, that information isn't used to steal someone's identity, or, you know, information that can be used against them to perpetrate a scam. So we do a lot of work in that space. I do consider myself to be, you know, one of the preeminent scam experts here in Vermont and will continue to work to protect Vermonters in the consumer space if I'm reelected.
Mitch Wertlieb: Well, as a scam expert, what are some tips, or some maybe red flags, you could tell people to watch out for, especially during that you know, we've got two weeks till an election, and correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't it around things like natural disasters, sometimes elections, that some of these scams start to become more prominent?
Charity Clark: Yes, we you know, there's a lot of specific scams that I could mention, but I want to instead share a kind of tool that you can apply to any situation. The way to spot a scam is if emotions are spiked -- that could be excitement, worry, concern -- and someone is trying to get you to give them money, there's a sense of urgency, and you don't know who they are, or you can't confirm who they are because they're on the phone or something. And then if they ask you to pay in gift cards or cryptocurrency, some sketchy way of paying that doesn't have consumer protection built in the way credit cards do, red flag. Like, don't do it. Call the Consumer Assistance Program at my office, which is 1-800-649-2424, if you ever encounter something like this, I'm telling you, it's probably a scam. So that's, you can apply in any situation. And you know more, we think of scams as being an attempt at stealing money from you. But you mentioned the election, and I of course, am worried that the same tricks that are used to steal money from people in scams are going to be used to steal their vote, you know, convince them there's something going on that isn't going on. And we saw that back in the New Hampshire primary. Someone made a deepfake of President Biden's voice before the election. So something to be on the lookout as we approach the election.
Mitch Wertlieb: I want to shift now to crime that is more related to sort of street crime, you know, violent crime, that sort of thing. And we did see a rise in shooting-related deaths in Vermont, particularly between 2021 and 2022 now, you were elected in 2022. I'm wondering if you can update us a little bit on deaths related to gun violence in the state over the last couple of years.
Charity Clark: Well, we participate in the governor's gun violence safety task force, but in general, let me say everybody deserves to not only be safe, but feel safe in their communities. And it's an important job for the attorney general to be a member of the kind of community in keeping people safe. For me, I prioritize prosecution of the most violent crimes, that includes murder, sexual assault, child sexual assault, and those kinds of cases. In addition, we work very closely with the state's attorneys. The state's attorneys are the county prosecutors elected in each county, and they are responsible for public safety in their counties. We work very closely. Sometimes we'll take a case over for them. You know, sexual assault case, a murder case, we also will co-chair a trial with them. Sometimes we're behind the scenes providing support. So we have a very collaborative relationship, and it's a relationship that I'll be looking to, you know, strengthen as the, you know, as the new second term begins.
Mitch Wertlieb: FBI statistics show there were 14 homicides in Vermont in 2021. That number, though, jumped to 25 homicides in 2022 and then 27 murders in 2023. Vermont still well below the national average, of course, for homicides. But I wonder if your office is concerned about the rise and wondering what it may be attributed to.
Charity Clark: You know, of course, we're concerned. I think that we sometimes, we don't want to remember the pandemic, but we had a very traumatic thing happen to us all over the world, and it, of course, happened here as well, and it combined that with, you know, the opioid epidemic, which these, you know, decades on, has really morphed into a situation where we have a lot of drug related crime, I think we're finding ourselves in this situation. It's it is very disconcerting, and I think it's going to require all of us who work in this state, in this space, to collaborate and work together to keep Vermont safe and to make sure the public safety is top of mind.
Mitch Wertlieb: Staffing issues have been a problem, especially with Vermont State Police. I know that 51 positions were unfilled. I think as recently as last year, I'm wondering what your office is doing about that, to try to recruit more qualified officers for Vermont.
Charity Clark: Well, we do not supervise any of the state police, but I will say I have two suggestions. One of them, I've passed on. Most of the recruits for law enforcement positions are men. I know because I go every graduation to the Vermont police academy graduation, I really enjoy that. It's very uplifting and inspiring to see the officers graduate and their families supporting them. The first one I went to had one woman out of like 40, and since then, it's been a couple more, but I don't think I've ever seen more than like five out of 40 or 50. If we could only be more effective at recruiting women to these positions, think of how many more applicants we would have for these jobs. So that's one thing I would say. I would be, if I were in charge, I would be looking at, you know, how do we improve that? Is it child care? You know? What are the issues we could be trying to do to, you know, invest, because it would probably cost money, but to invest. The other idea that I talked about during the last campaign is the idea of a campus for the Vermont Police Academy that's not located in a far away from the urban center place, and that's what we have now. Pittsford is not close to Burlington, where there are so many other people. I think that that could be effective co-locating it at a college or university. I think would be another new element, where we're getting away from this kind of paramilitary style approach, and a lot of other people have talked about that. Again, I'm very interested in that, and both of those ideas to try to kind of change what we do when it comes to recruiting law enforcement officers.
Mitch Wertlieb: We're speaking with incumbent Attorney General Charity Clark, and I want to sort of piggyback on this, this topic here, I think it's a little bit related. You mentioned working with state's attorneys throughout Vermont, and I'm wondering about your view on restorative justice efforts. If you could maybe briefly explain what restorative justice is and whether or not that's something that that your office is supportive of.
Charity Clark: Well, I think restorative justice is critically important, and it is something that the attorney general's office plays a very large role in, because our community justice unit oversees all of the restorative justice programming in the state. We provide grants to local nonprofits who are the restorative justice centers, or sometimes are called community justice centers all throughout the state, and we have, you know, therefore, this oversight of programming, and that includes like court diversion and now pre-charge, which which, a recent bill just passed, and we will be overseeing pre-charge as well, and pre-trial services. So what we see with restorative justice is outcomes that are better for both the victim and also for the perpetrator. These are generally lower level crimes. There's an opportunity for intervention if there are issues related to drugs and alcohol or mental health. Statistically, there's more healing that happens for the victim and more rehabilitation for the perpetrator. And I mean, critically, restorative justice plays a role in 20% of misdemeanors here in Vermont at this point. So it really is well established. It's been going on for decades here in Vermont, and I am a huge fan, and I will just point out you can include restorative justice in plea deals. You know, outside of those programming, those programs, you can include the restorative justice model. You ask kind of, what is it? So I want to answer a sort of rough example would be, say someone had a lower level crime, like, you know, disorderly conduct or something like that, and people they were rowdy at a bar and hit someone and broke someone's flower pot there, they might have a list of things that they're going to do to kind of address the harm. There might be a, what's called a restorative circle. People from the community volunteer to be a part of that circle, and it's very effective. I encourage, if anyone's listening and they're interested in this, I would encourage you to learn more, because it really is a great model, and I'm really proud of the work that our office does and the role we play in the restorative justice.
Mitch Wertlieb: So I'm assuming you'd like to see it expanded for accessibility as well, because we do hear that more rural, remote areas of Vermont don't have quite the access that say more the urban centers like Burlington have.
Charity Clark: Well, and that was part of the bill that passed was expanding that geographic, you know, equity.
Mitch Wertlieb: In the time we have left here charity. Clark, I want to get to something you mentioned near the top, and this is the interest in suing the social media platform TikTok over allegations that they've created, sort of like their platform is a little bit like slot machines. You've talked about this. You know that it's essentially addictive for young people, is that your view?
Charity Clark: Well, yeah, it's designed to be addictive. So you know, if you find yourself on a social media app like TikTok and you find yourself having trouble pulling away, it's, it's, that's by design. That's how they make money. In addition, TikTok not only has that problem with the design, but they also have a virtual strip club where there's an online virtual currency that is not registered as it should be, so it's operating illegally, and it entices, you know, young people to perform, you know, exploits them sexually and financially using that virtual currency. So they have that other element that I find so troubling. So yes, we recently sued them, and I'll continue to work on that case and try to protect Vermont's children.
Mitch Wertlieb: Other states are involved in that as well as I understand it. There's interesting study out of Brown University, School of Public Health that talks a lot about this. I will say, though, that there, you know, there is still a lot of data that we don't know about, whether or not it is truly addictive, and I think it does have to be delved into a little deeper.
Charity Clark: Well, I don't know that we agree about that.
Mitch Wertlieb: OK, we can agree to disagree. Yeah, we are still waiting on this. It's certainly listen. I've got a teenage daughter. I have the same concerns about Instagram and spending too much time on the phone that a lot of parents do. So I do appreciate your efforts and at least looking into this, and we'll find out more about it. I've been speaking with Charity Clark, the Democrat who is running for reelection as Vermont's attorney general. Thank you so much for the time. I really appreciate it.
Charity Clark: Thanks for having me.
Mitch Wertlieb: And we're going to move on, and we're going to speaking with some other folks in just a moment who are running for the position of attorney general. We hope you'll stay with us. This is Vermont Edition.
Ture Nelson
Mitch Wertlieb: Welcome back to Vermont Edition. I'm Mitch Wertlieb in for Mikaela Lefrak and today's show is part of our series of debates and candidate interviews ahead of the Nov. 5 general election. In this segment of the show, we're talking to Republican Ture Nelson and Green Mountain Peace and Justice’s Kevin Gustafson. Each candidate will get about the same amount of time to respond to our questions, and we'll start with Republican Ture Nelson. He's a longtime Berlin selectman and town administrator and a former federal investigator as well. Ture Nelson, thank you so much for being with us today.
Ture Nelson: Thank you for having me.
Mitch Wertlieb: What would your top three priorities, let's say, be if you are elected as Vermont's next attorney general?
Ture Nelson: Well, my first priority would be crime. As you talked about in the prior segment, crime, both violent crime and, you know, the lower level property crimes have just skyrocketed in Vermont over the past several years. In fact, the FBI statistics show in Vermont, the crime rate has doubled since 2014, you know, being both property crimes and the violent crimes you know, talked about homicides earlier. Being here in Berlin, we're very business friendly as far as the town, and we have a large commercial district in town, and we see the effects of shoplifting and property crimes every day in Vermont, which are not being handled appropriately by the current court system.
Mitch Wertlieb: What would your approach [be] then? Oh, I'm so sorry. Go ahead, please. I don't want to …
Ture Nelson: Yeah, to answer your question. I think first of all, as the first speaker is talking about, you know, she's focusing on violent crimes, but you know, she’s very soft on property crimes. And this may get into other questions as well, but you know, the attorney general needs to be, you know, I call it a force multiplier with the County State's Attorneys. In most of these cases are handled by the County State's Attorneys, but they have their own problems, their own staffing issues, their own caseload problems, and as you know, we can work jointly together to you know best handle these cases in an effective resolution, and not just to get them off the docket.
Mitch Wertlieb: Well, Charity Clark was talking about being a fan of restorative justice, and that is something that she was pointing out is usually reserved for less violent, less serious crimes as a way to avoid, you know, somebody getting put into the system where they maybe, you know, do get arrested and put away for a longer amount of time for something that isn't as serious a crime, you know, because that can create a loop effect where there's recidivism, etc. What's your view of restorative justice, and do you feel like it could be a tool to use for less serious crimes?
Ture Nelson: I'm a big fan of restorative justice. We have a great diversion program here in Washington County that I feel is very effective. I also know there had been some work on drug courts in the state, in the southeast portion of the state, where they focus on treatment and rehabilitation rather than pure punitive punishments. But it's not, you know, the perfect situation for everything. These cases need to be dealt with on a case by case basis, depending on the facts and the likelihood of success, and not just a wholesale, you know, we're going to shift all of these cases to diversion restorative programs, as some County State's Attorneys currently do.
Mitch Wertlieb: True Nelson, you mentioned the rising crime rates from the FBI statistics, homicides in particular. We have seen an increase in gun violence in Vermont. And again, don't want to scare people, because relative to the rest of the country, certainly Vermont is a safer place. But what do you think is driving a lot of this violent crime?
Ture Nelson: Well,I think there's several issues. You know. The first is drugs and mental health. We do not have the treatment programs in place to be able to handle either of them effectively. On top of that, the homeless problems and the just the cost of living, you know, increases that everybody's facing nowadays. People are living paycheck to paycheck, if they can even do that, and they're forced into taking actions that they may not otherwise have taken without these pressures on them. And it's only getting worse. You know, we've seen the, you know, the inflation over the past several years. We've seen the education taxes this year double digits in many places. We're seeing double digit increases in health insurance next year, and already seeing some preliminary numbers of education taxes going up again double digits next year. Vermonters just cannot afford this anymore, and we need to get the Legislature under control to, you know, stop these feel good measures that really don't have any, you know, real positive effect on Vermonter’s lives.
Mitch Wertlieb: Well, the AGs office, of course, is not in charge of the state budget. I'm just wondering, you know, what kind of influence you could have as the attorney general on some of these issues you're talking about. You know, it's certainly debatable whether or not those things you mentioned are driving crime. But you know, again, that wouldn't be related directly to what your responsibilities would be as AG.
Ture Nelson: Well as the AG, you know, keep in mind that, you know, they are the law firm for the state, basically, as a way to put it. And you know, there's a lot of instances where the state signs contracts, and and these contracts should at least be reviewed by the Attorney General's Office for their benefit to the state. I mean, why is VTrans purchasing 20 acres of land when they only need eight acres of land, and they're paying double the listed value of it. I mean, that's right there, is an indication of state agencies not working, and the Attorney General's office should be putting a stop to these contracts. Other contracts would be through the Agency of Digital Services, where, you know, multi million dollar computer systems are being contracted without going out to bid. And you know, ADS staff is saying that these are bad systems. These systems just don't work. But yet, the agency is just moving, moving ahead and implementing them.
Mitch Wertlieb: So you would maybe use the office to maybe coordinate or communicate a little better with legislators, and bring some of these concerns to them and say, ‘Hey, you could be helping us out with reducing violent crime if you did X, Y or Z?’
Ture Nelson: I’m a big believer in partnerships, and I like to work together, and none of these issues are going to be resolved on their own, but I've got a proven track order to building partnerships. We, you know, we've got a great partnership in Vermont called the Vermont Highway Safety Alliance, for instance. It came out of federal legislation creating the Strategic Highway Safety Plan, and has since morphed into partnerships and involving – everybody's affected by highway safety which, is everybody, basically, who drives on the road. I would like to see the same types of partnerships with everything else the state does.
Mitch Wertlieb: Let's move on to things like consumer protection, because Vermont as you know, has sued multiple companies, including social media conglomerates. We heard Charity Clark talking about bringing the suit against TikTok, pharmaceutical companies. Is the state doing enough to protect Vermonters? And do you think these settlements are enough to change the practices of some of these big companies?
Ture Nelson: Well, I think the problem is that these suits do not really bring about real change. They're not effective. Yeah, they sound good that we're suing these multinational and international corporations. But in the end, you know, has made Meta and Facebook really changed any of their processes. Is Meta, you know, a better company today than they were a couple years ago. You know, same with TikTok. You know, there's, there's a whole lot of issues with Tiktok. I use it, I, you know, I find some of the, some of the posts, you know, extremely hilarious and, and there is some good information on there. You know, there's a comment that's visible, you know, right now, I think tonight even might be like the last night to see it that I've been seeing some meteorologists, you know, talk about how to find this comet in the skies. You know, those, those are great posts, but there's also just a lot of junk out there. And you know, everybody talks about the algorithm of TikTok, and you know how it feeds you posts that it thinks you would like. So you keep looking, or, well, maybe the next one will be better, maybe the next one after that. And just the whole concern about what data TikTok is collecting and retaining on you, you know, not, not just the addictiveness of it, but what it's going to doing with all that data?
Mitch Wertlieb: So am I reading you right and saying that you agree with bringing the lawsuit against TikTok as Charity Clark's office is doing?
Ture Nelson: Well,I think it's what is going to be the end result. If it's just going to be a sue and settle like you know, her office has done so many times, but no real changes to the platform, what is that going to get us? Yeah, it gets us some money, you know, potentially in the settlement. But you know, as I've, you know, just mentioned before, you know, the state has not been a real good steward of public money, and they'll squander this money as well.
Mitch Wertlieb: You feel there are other areas, or, you know, other issues that the state should be looking at when it comes to these kind of suits?
Ture Nelson: We’re not just these kinds of suits, just the, you know, keep in mind the Attorney General's Office, just like, you know, all of our state governments, you know, we've got limited resources, and it's a matter of what we put those limited resources towards in achieving effectiveness, I think, you know, focusing on crime. You know, working with the, you know, the County State's Attorneys, partnering with the U.S. attorneys. You know, because a lot of times these, especially when it comes to the online scams, are, you know, national and international in nature and beyond just the resources here in Vermont.
Mitch Wertlieb: Thank you for bringing that up. I haven't asked you about that yet. I do want to ask about you know, you don't, you don't have a legal background. Turn Nelson. You do have a law enforcement background, as I understand it, but what do you feel are your best qualifications to be Vermont's next attorney general.
Ture Nelson: Well, I think first of all, my sense of fairness and my sense of what is right and wrong. While I've not been to law school, I do have 32 years of investigative service for the Federal Department of Transportation, in which I was very directly involved in initiating and even settling civil cases and other types of cases. We had a toolbox. We called it various types of cases we could bring about. You know, my background is in law enforcement administration, which I did conduct, you know, did have a lot of law study in that, including criminal and constitutional law and civil law. Basically law school style of classes back then.
Mitch Wertlieb: And certainly, I would think that you are also going to be watching for cyber crime and the kind of things that Charity Clark was talking about. Ture, what would you do to prevent the kind of scams that prey on vulnerable Vermonters?
Ture Nelson: First of all, we need to, you know, have the education out there. And I know the incumbent is doing a great job trying to train, you know, the public, how to look out and not be a victim. But we also need to strengthen our local law enforcement to be able to investigate these crimes. And you're not going to build that by creating a competitive culture, as she currently has with law enforcement. You know, we have a detective here in Berlin who is very effective in checking into the, you know, the cell tower data and the phone usage and everything like that. In fact, he's going to training next week, additional training on that. I think, just needs to be brought down, you know, through the Vermont Criminal Justice Training Council. You know, let's not just have one or two officers here and there. Let's, let's incorporate this into the, you know, to the regular training, you know, for all law enforcement officers.
Mitch Wertlieb: I’ve been speaking with Republican Ture Nelson, who is running to be Vermont's next Attorney General. Thank you so very much for taking the time today. I really appreciate it.
Ture Nelson: Thank you.
Kevin Gustafson
Mitch Wertleib: Thank you, and we're going to move on now to another candidate for attorney general of the State of Vermont. This is the Green Mountain Peace and Justice Party's nominee, Kevin Gustafson. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us today.
Kevin Gustafson: Thanks so much for having me.
Mitch Wertlieb: And my first question to you, the same as I've asked our other two candidates today: If you are elected to the job of attorney general, what would be at the top of your priority list?
Kevin Gustafson: So I do think that there are two big priorities – and they've already been mentioned, but I think it's important – is the consumer protection and then obviously the criminal justice. And so on the consumer protection side, I do think that we are in a new Gilded Age, as it were, of trusts, and we need a new experience of trust-busting. And I think to the degree that the there are levers that the attorney general in both one state or in conjunction with other states, can join together in cases revolving [sic] either the kind of internet scams that we've heard about already on today's program, or indeed, I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned are, I think, price fixing or price gouging campaigns that have added to the sort of inflationary pressures that I think we're all feeling, and that affect the most vulnerable of us even more.
But there's a list of things in the consumer protection field. I think there's a rising – as my day-to-day job as an attorney, I've gotten just an increasing amount of calls revolving around, specifically construction-related fraud, failures to complete projects, inability to, you know, register with different agencies to ensure that they're properly bonded and insured and the consequences thereof. And so, I think a refocus on that specific aspect of consumer protection is important.
And then I think one of the other things that is often thought of as outside the purview of the attorney general, but I think there are certainly ways in which the attorney general can play a specific role, is the issue of housing. While the attorney general is not going to be necessarily building more housing, they certainly can work with our lawmakers on ways to figure out what role they could play in addressing availability of housing. And I think the one major way of doing that would be through reviewing housing discrimination and prosecuting those who are engaged in housing discrimination. And I think specifically to Vermont, the now sort of winding down of the motel housing program has, in and of itself, been, while potentially beneficial, has seen a lot of other effects that are, that I think need to be addressed and need to be understood from both, from the actual like, consumer protection side of things, and I think that that should be one of the things that's addressed. And so I’m sure we can go on to talk about, you know, the aspects of, the criminal justice aspect of that, but I do think that consumer protection is among the most important thing that the attorney general does. And I think that while, you know, a lawsuit against TikTok or Meta will certainly be a way to get into the news, I do share Ture’s concerns about them and not having that much of an effect on a company as large as TikTok or Meta. And instead, we should be focusing on whether or not these organizations should be so large that those kinds of efforts may not actually change their culture.
Mitch Wertlieb: And when I hear you talking about housing being an important issue, maybe not as directly related to the AGs office, are you making connections between the problem of homelessness in Vermont and then corresponding problems with crime? Do you see a connection there?
Kevin Gustafson: Absolutely. I think that there's a, that even when you look at the issue of addiction, that that's all related too. And I think that housing is a fundamental aspect of this. Having secure housing can often be the inflection point between whether or not you maintain a clean and sober life, or whether or not you may find yourself back out on the streets and having to go into a life or at least a period of time in crime, to be able to address your felt needs. And so yes, I think that housing is a central factor that leads into other aspects that the attorney general will have to address in its role as the sort of head of the criminal justice or the criminal prosecution, you know, governmental action in Vermont. But I think that to the degree that there is a, both I think, an increase in the amount of corporate ownership and sort of housing and the discrimination that I think often does follow from that, that inevitably leads to people finding it difficult, if not impossible, to actually find stable housing. And if you're not able to have a roof over your head, the ability to get into other aspects of what we might call antisocial behavior is one step away.
Mitch Wertlieb: Kevin Gustafson, I find it interesting that the Green Mountain Peace and Justice Party is running a candidate for attorney general, just to be frank about it, because when I think about the party itself, crime and issues related to crime don't immediately come to mind. What is the Green Mountain Peace and Justice Party's sort of approach to violent crime, petty crime, the kind of crime that you know the Attorney General's Office is going to have to tackle head on if you were to be successful.
Kevin Gustafson: Well, the Green Mountain Peace and Justice Party is sort of an avowedly Socialist Party, but is a non violent Socialist Party. So our orientation is, you know, on the sort of, the people as it were. And I think that our approach to crime, or our way of understanding crime, is that it's in many ways and often not so much an issue of individual fault or or some kind of locus of responsibility to be laid at the feet of an individual, but it's a societal problem. And so we have an economic system which is based on, fundamentally, on the exploitation of working people's labor, and that is basically all that they have to offer. And when that even meager chance to be even have your labor exploited, is not available to you, the need to have to purchase something like housing, purchase things like food, does not end. And so either you are forced to, as the saying goes, beg, borrow or steal, oftentimes, you are just deciding day in and day out, which one of those you're going to do to get your basic needs. And in a situation in a society which does not provision us with either the basic income necessary to be provisioned with our basic needs or actually giving us our basic needs, there are going to be those who for circumstances completely outside of their control, find themselves in a situation in which they are unable to get the so-called free labor that we, that we use to get our paychecks day in and day out, and we'll have to find non legal or extralegal means in order to get the income that is necessary to get even the most basic of needs filled. And unfortunately, those who are able to do that are often not able to get even those basic needs filled until they do interact with the criminal justice system. Because for a lot of people, the only stable housing they've had in a long time is a jail cell. And I do think that that’s an indictment of a system that does not, would rather spend all of the resources of which, Ture is right, we have a limited amount of, on prosecuting the individuals who are essentially the victims of a system that doesn't care about them, instead of provisioning them with what they would need at the beginning of their lives and throughout their lives, such that they would not be forced to turn to crime in order to get that those needs met.
Mitch Wertlieb: Well based on what you just said, then, I have to imagine that you are a supporter of restorative justice efforts, just as our last two guests were.
Kevin Gustafson: Absolutely. I think in my, you know, I've had a number of different clients who have gone through the diversion program. I think that it’s a great program generally. There are, I think, a lot of work that can be done to ensure, I think, some consistency throughout the different counties and the provision of those programs. I do think some work much better than others, and we should be engaged in a constant process to learn what actually does work and what doesn't work, and have a dialog between all of the different, divergent programs and restorative justice programs to sort of identify what makes sense and what doesn't. I do think that, like all things, there are always ways to improve. But as a philosophical position, yes, absolutely, 100% in favor of restorative justice in many, many areas, and not even in some of the what you might call lower level crimes or non-violent crimes, or things like that. I do think that it's, it's a sort of easy thing to say that, Oh, well, you know, diversion is available for small things like, you know, if you get into a fight at a bar and break someone's, you know, flowers or something, sure. I mean, that makes a lot of sense there. But we should also be thinking about restorative justice all the way up even to some of, you know, violent crimes. It may not be the thing that satisfies, I think, our base human desire for a kind of retributive justice, but I think that when we are looking at what will create a society that is long term sustainable, and the kind of society that we want to live in, it would be a society that looks at individuals who are even doing some of the worst things they'll ever do in their life, and say that they are not someone who deserves a life of absolute non-utility in an incarcerated setting, but instead ought to be given the tools that they did not have before then to be an active and contributing member of our society.
Mitch Wertlieb: Kevin, I really appreciate your candor on that question, because you know you don't hear a lot of folks seeking political office who are willing to perhaps go that far. But I do wonder if that view, which may not jive with, let's say, traditional law enforcement, would be something that you could bring to the job as attorney general and talk to Vermont State Police and officers, et cetera, and say that's a way I want to go. Would you be able to establish a good working relationship with Vermont's law enforcement officials if you were to be the next attorney general?
Kevin Gustafson: Well, you know, as a volunteer firefighter down in Rutland Town, I mean, I've had a chance to work with a number of police and to hear, you know, some of their concerns. And obviously that you're talking day-to-day dealing with the consequences of the system I described. And so again, it's difficult when you're in that position to try to take a sort of 30,000-foot view of how society and social factors come into creating this system that you're seeing day in and day out. But I do think that an effective attorney general would work with the police, and could do so effectively, even taking a position that our goal is not to simply, you know, allow anybody sort of, quote, unquote, back on the street, but is to identify those who really need the kinds of things that can be offered so that they are not engaged in constant recidivism, thereby decreasing the amount of that that the police are dealing with. And so if you take an approach and you understand it in a more holistic way, it's not potentially as easy to put into a sound bite, but it is actually a much more effective tool at actually addressing the thing that police officers are dealing with. And I think on top of that, if we just added something like, you know, you're talking about not having the ability to recruit as many police officers – if we added a community resource officer to each of the police officers so that they could deal with the nonviolent or mental health related issues, now you have a situation in which you're supporting police in some of the ways that, I think, the most frustrating and difficult aspects of their job, which they should not be doing.
Mitch Wertlieb: Kevin Gustafson is the Green Mountain Peace and Justice Center’s [sic] candidate for attorney general of Vermont. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Kevin Gustafson: Thank you.
Broadcast live on Monday, October 21, 2024, at noon; rebroadcast at 7 p.m.
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