Vermont Public continued its series of primary election debates on Wednesday with the two candidates seeking the Democratic nomination for lieutenant governor.
Contending for the nomination are Thomas Renner of Winooski – the city’s deputy mayor, and a former staffer for Vermont Congresswoman Becca Balint and Sen. Patrick Leahy – and David Zuckerman of Hinesburg – the current lieutenant governor, a farmer, and former Vermont state representative and state senator.
Voters can weigh in on the race in Vermont’s state primaries on Aug. 13 (and early voting is already underway). The debate for the Republican candidates for lieutenant governor was on Tuesday, July 30.
During the Vermont Public debate, the candidates differed on some topics, like raising the sales taxes, while finding common ground on others, like climate initiatives. Below are key highlights, followed by a full transcript of the debate.
Correction: When introducing Thomas Renner during the live debate, we incorrectly stated that he worked for Rep. Becca Balint’s congressional campaign. He is a former staff member for her congressional office, not her campaign.
Prior experience
Zuckerman repeatedly referenced his many years of legislative experience; in his closing statement, he noted that he has been a public servant for 24 of the last 28 years. He is currently serving his third nonconsecutive term as lieutenant governor.
Renner highlighted his experience working “at the grassroots level” as a municipal leader in Winooski, Vermont’s most diverse city. He noted that he has worked “for some of Vermont’s most respected public servants” – Rep. Becca Balint and retired Sen. Patrick Leahy.
During the segment in which candidates asked one another questions, Renner asked Zuckerman when it will be time for Zuckerman to “pass the torch to a younger, more diverse leader.” Zuckerman responded, “I think when someone runs for the office that has the breadth of experience needed to be governor on day one if something happens. That's important.”
Sales tax
Property taxes and the rising costs of public education came up numerous times in the Democratic debate. Renner noted that Vermont has a dwindling number of public school students due to its aging population. “There’s an impact to that,” he said. “There’s a cost to that.”
To increase the revenue streams for education, Renner suggested increasing the sales tax. “A sales tax isn't just something that Vermonters contribute into,” he said. “It’s visitors as well. And I think that educating our youth is something that everybody who comes to Vermont should take part in.”
Zuckerman does not support raising the sales tax to fund schools. “That is a very regressive tax,” he said. “And while tourists might pay some of that … a huge portion is paid by working class Vermonters who just can't take any more on their shoulders.” As an alternative funding mechanism, Zuckerman proposed raising property taxes on second homeowners.
Climate change
Both candidates strongly support the state’s efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and fund climate change mitigation efforts. When asked how they would prepare for climate change and prevent emergencies like the recent flooding, they both listed numerous funding priorities.
Zuckerman noted that he is a longtime advocate for policies around “renewable energy, wind power, solar power and reducing our energy consumption.” He also cited his own work as an organic regenerative farmer, and his investment in solar panels on one of his barns. “So there's a range of things that I do personally, as well as what I do in the political world,” he said.
Similarly, Renner listed a number of investment areas he sees as critical: “wind, solar, public transportation, building out our vehicle charging networks – all of those things can have a huge impact, even though they seem small.” He also said climate change needs to remain top of mind when building new housing. “We need to be using heat pumps, we need to be making sure that those homes are well insulated. And on top of that we need to be weatherizing old homes in Vermont that just use up tons of fossil fuels.”
Transcript
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers and have been lightly edited for concision and clarity. They may contain errors, so please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
Motivation and qualifications
Mikaela Lefrak: What motivates you to run for lieutenant governor? And why do you think you are the most qualified candidate for this job? Thomas Renner, we'll start with you.
Thomas Renner: Thank you for that question. I really appreciate it. So, my motivation is, is that I see that in Vermont we are an amazing state that has these amazing values of uplifting young voices, uplifting diversity, uplifting democratic values. Those things are all really important to me. Those are things that I embody, and I see the office of lieutenant governor as this amazing messaging office — an office that can message those democratic values but also those Vermont values. I think what better person to represent that than somebody who has been the deputy mayor of our most diverse city in Vermont. Somebody who has been working on those issues with members of our federal delegation, Sen. Leahy and Congresswoman Balint, like you mentioned earlier. The Office of lieutenant governor is this amazing place where we can really highlight what Vermont does and it's something that I'm deeply excited to do. Thank you.
Mikaela Lefrak: So, this is the first time that you're running for statewide office. And this position is second in line to the governorship. Why do you consider yourself ready to take the helm of state government if the governor is unable to serve?
Thomas Renner: That's a great question. I've had a lot of experience in politics. I dedicated my career, I started my career in politics, working for Sen. Leahy, who was somebody who taught me about policy and how to move the best things forward for Vermonters. As the deputy mayor of Winooski, we work on really complicated things like really difficult budgets, big infrastructure projects. I'm somebody that I know that I can work with the governor. If I were to be elected lieutenant governor, I think that's really important to assume that role to have a relationship with the person currently in the office.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Lieutenant Governor, same question to you.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Sure. Thank you. Well, what motivates me is when I look at my daughter, who just graduate from high school, and I think about her future. I think about a future in Vermont, where folks have an opportunity to work, live and play without being stressed every minute of the day just meet their basic needs. What motivates me is my friends who farm in the Intervale along the Winooski River, Dog River, or now up in St. Johnsbury, who are impacted by climate change horrendously every day. I mean, I know what those farmers, and people whose homes have been washed away, that's life's work, and it's gone. And seasonal farming is tough work. I know that personally and to lose it all midseason is something we have to work to reduce those kinds of impacts. I think about the folks on First Street, Second Street, Third Street in Barre, where I just visited a couple weeks ago after the third time they've been flooded in two years. The stress, the mental health issues that start to come from these kinds of repeated traumas, and how we have so much more to do. It's just to work with people across Vermont, who are amazing, helping each other to try to make it better.
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, Lieutenant Governor, you've previously served many years in both the House and the Senate, and this is your currently your third term as lieutenant governor. What more do you see yourself accomplishing in this role? Do you see it as a stepping stone to higher office?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, a couple of things there. First of all, right now, with next session having 16 new members in the last two years, last biennium, and in this coming biennium. One of the rules is to make sure that that process runs smoothly, that democracy works. I mean, you think about how many people have been in the doldrums for the last six months prior to that the Biden-Harris shift. thinking about what's happening to our democracy, with social media with with respect for each other, serving at the podium, running those meetings is a big part of decorum and respect for our system. So, there's a lot to offer there right now at this moment in the political realities. As far as stepping stone, who knows what's next.
Climate
Mikaela Lefrak: All right, well, let’s turn now to our most-asked-about topic from our Citizens Agenda — climate change. The night before last, extreme rain in Caledonia and Essex counties caused destructive flooding for the second time this month… leading to about two dozen swift water rescues. Globally, last year was the hottest year in recorded history. Hope in Chittenden County writes, “Vermont is subjected to weather events, threatening lives and livelihoods. How will you prepare for and prevent climate change and subsequent emergencies?” Lieutenant Governor, we'll start with you this time.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, there's so many things that we each can do individually, plus what can be done at the state level. I have been a long, long time advocate about around renewable energy, wind power, solar power, and reducing our energy consumption. From a policy perspective, I've been outspoken leader on that. I think that's one of the reasons I have the Vermont Conservation Voters endorsement. But on top of that, personally, we've installed many, many solar panels on one of the roofs of our barns. Because of the energy it takes to cool down produce. It's a big bill, it's over $1,000 a month. And so, we've cut that way back, using the power of the sun to cool the produce that we grow. As an organic regenerative farmer, we also grow a lot of cover crops, cover crops are good for the farmer by putting carbon and nutrients into the soil for the next crops. But they're also good for everybody, because plants absorb carbon. And so, I've got fields of hay that we leave, to grow and to be habitat for everything from monarch butterflies and other birds and beasts out there, to what we do on the land that we operate. So, there's a range of things that I do personally, as well as what I do in the political world.
Mikaela Lefrak: Solar panels are expensive. Do you think the state is doing enough to help farmers take actions like you have, who can't put up those upfront costs?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: They are very expensive. And I'm fortunate that I was able to put some up, not as many as I needed. I reached the maximum what I could do. There's federal grants that I have not applied for because I've been in political office. So, I felt like that was a risk of perceived whatevers. But there's always more to do. I think most of our incentives for renewable energy and so forth are tax credits, which help people that have some means and have tax exposure. But we're not nearly doing enough for everyday working people who are living paycheck to paycheck, where renewable energy is out of reach, and therefore the savings are out of reach. And so, then they're made to feel guilty for not doing enough. That's where we must spend our time and money.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Thomas Renner, same question to you. How will you prepare for and prevent climate change and subsequent emergencies?
Thomas Renner: Yeah, thank you for the question. When I worked for Congresswoman Balint, climate, energy and environment, or actually some of the topics that I covered working on those issues at the federal level. It's critically important that we invest in wind, solar, public transportation, building out our vehicle charging network. All of those things can have a huge impact, even though they seem small. And also, another thing that I think that we can really focus on is, we know that we need to build more homes in Vermont. We want to, we need to do those, thinking of the impact on the climate, we need to be using heat pumps, we need to be making sure that those homes are well insulated. And on top of that we need to be weatherizing old homes in Vermont that just use up tons of fossil fuels and then spill those out into the environment. You know, some Vermonters say to me “Well, what can I do that can even make an impact?” Those types of things are things that individual Vermonters can do to make that impact. And then the state can make those investments and pressure the federal government to make those investments as well so that we can have those renewable energies that are so important for fighting climate change.
Mikaela Lefrak: According to the National Climate Assessment, winter temperatures, in particular are warming nearly twice as fast as summer temperatures. That is very bad for a place like Vermont where it's winter a lot of the year. How do you propose supporting businesses and Vermont's tourist economy that relies so heavily on snow and cold temperatures through all these changes?
Thomas Renner: Yeah, I mean, we definitely noticed that it's not as cold. The mosquitoes have been crazy this year, for example. We have a huge winter industry that we need to make sure that we're protecting, of course. They can make snow, but that's very expensive and it also there are negative repercussions to doing that as well. So, we must be fighting climate change and advocating for those climate change fights across the country, so that we can limit what is happening here in Vermont. And then coming up with programs that will support those businesses that are impacted, helping them to diversify the type of tourism that they attract, and maybe focusing on some more tourism in the summer and spring months.
Mikaela Lefrak: A follow up question for both of you. I'll give you 30 seconds to answer. You're both in different types of leadership roles. You're deputy mayor, you're the lieutenant governor. Can you name one thing that you did specifically to help fellow Vermonters in the wake of the recent flooding in July, either in the past couple of days or earlier this month? Lieutenant Governor?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: I just mentioned the folks in Barre. I went and helped muck out some basements in Barre. So that's an individual help. And then also as lieutenant governor, we've used all of the communications that I have. Whether it's the lieutenant governor newsletter that goes up to over 10,000 Vermonters, anybody can sign up for that on lieutenant governor's website, where we put out information not only about what's happening during the political session, but also things like where to get support services in the case of a flood. So, we've been putting information out through that and on our social media, and in every sort of way we can get the word out.
Thomas Renner: During the last flood, my friend Kesha Ram and some other folks, we did a lot of work gathering supplies and money to donate to the places that were impacted. When these floods happened, again, we did the same thing. We're currently actively working on continuing to distribute those items. And personally, as well, I went down to Barre, when it happened, and I did some volunteering. And I did that last time. But you know, like the lieutenant governor, using social media, to try to amplify what has happened and to try to help the people in those situations. Let people know where their volunteer efforts that they can join. I find that Vermonters all want to help each other and pitch in and it's been amazing to see.
Housing
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Well, we received many, many messages ahead of today's debate about the lack of housing in the state. Becky in Windsor County wants to know how Vermont should balance the huge need to build affordable housing with protecting our environment. It's a big question. Thomas Renner, we'll start with you.
Thomas Renner: So, we need affordable housing. We need all sorts of housing actually; we need to seriously invest in our housing across all different life spectrums. And I like to talk about the Winooski model. In Winooski, we've really focused our housing on our downtown, and on our Main Street. We haven't done these big projects that you see as you're driving around Winooski and our neighborhoods, for example. And I think that that method can be passed across the state. We can build on our main streets, every town has a main street, no matter how small it is. Maybe it's just a post office. But right next to it, we can build a unit, a condo unit or an apartment unit without destroying the environment that is around it. We move to Vermont, and we stay in Vermont because we love what it looks like. I do believe that we can build, and we can get the housing stock that we need for Vermonters and to attract new people to come here without altering what our natural beauty looks like.
Mikaela Lefrak: What about for a smaller town, maybe in a more rural part of the state, that doesn't have the water and sewer infrastructure? That doesn't have the roundabout in the middle of town like Winooski does. You can’t quite copy and paste that.
Thomas Renner: You can’t copy and paste 100%. But that's where the state needs to step in and help those towns with those infrastructure projects. You know, in Winooski, we’re able to bond, but a town that's 200 people can't bond for that type of expense. So that's where the state and the federal government really needs to become partners with these towns, and building out that infrastructure, the water and the sewer that they need in order to get the housing that they deserve.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Lieutenant Governor.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, there's no doubt we need to put money into housing. That's the bottom line. There were a couple of different bills in the Legislature last year that one was around restructuring permitting, the governor supported it, really, really tearing down a lot of Act 250 to sort of allow for housing everywhere. And the cost of housing won't change unless we actually put money into bringing down the cost. The materials are too high. The labor is too high. And so, I supported the House version, which put $75 million a year. And I was planned for many, many years, at least 10 years into buying down the cost of housing. So, we'd have affordable housing as well as the quantity of housing. And as Thomas said, we need all kinds of housing in town and village centers, probably smaller unit housing, whether it's for seniors or for young couples or for individuals so that they can have more dense housing. Walk to your local facilities, your local country store, your local gas station, your local whatever, in order to reduce the carbon footprint as well. So, you can build a few dense small unit scenarios to really open up some of the houses that could fit families, that right now only have a single person. So, you can do multiple levels to make it work.
Mikaela Lefrak: $75 million a year for 10 years, that's a lot of money for a small state. Where was that going to come from?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Actually, it was gonna come from a 3% marginal tax, which means top rate tax, on those making over $500,000. And to put that number into sort of context for folks, that means someone with a million-dollar income would only pay $15,000 more. But in aggregate, we have enough wealthy Vermonters, because you've actually had a growing number of wealthy high-income Vermonters, that that would raise $75 million a year.
Mikaela Lefrak: Let’s pause here for a little conversation about the wealth tax. I’d like to give you 30 seconds to discuss your stances on it. And maybe you could try to convince somebody who doesn't support it — there's a lot of folks out there who don't — that it's a good idea. Lieutenant Governor, we’ll stay with you.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Sure. What I was just about was an income tax, which is slightly different. But as a whole, what we have seen is wealthier folks have been able to move to Vermont, you know of Boston or New York. They sold their house after COVID or they moved from Florida because of politics or southern Mississippi because of the climate. Those are the kinds of people that I've heard moving to Vermont, when I meet them at the farmers market, all those different reasons. And they've got the resources, you sell a house in Boston or New York for a million or a million and a half dollars, you can buy a house in Vermont, and out price everybody else. And that's what we've seen for the last couple of years. That's why just building more housing isn't going to make affordable housing as well. But people are moving here, they want to live in Vermont, we're not going to drive people away. The statistics are very clear. Public Assets Institute and others have shown that some move out, others move in.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thomas Renner.
Thomas Renner: I think a lot of the fear that folks have about it, is that they it hasn't been fully explained. So the lieutenant governor just did a great job. It's $15,000 on a million dollars.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Why? What did I say? I hope not I say 15. If I misspoke? Yeah.
Thomas Renner: Yeah, okay, perfect, perfect. I think most Vermonters who have a lot of money who have been able to take advantage of what we have here in Vermont, the community that we have here, when they realize that that's the type of money that we're talking about, they will want to participate and give back to their community. The business owners that I talked to understand that they have received things here in Vermont that have enabled them to make that wealth and they want to be part of their community.
Property taxes
Mikaela Lefrak: While we're talking taxes, let's keep talking taxes. It was a very, very big issue this past year, in particular, property taxes are set to increase by an average of nearly 14%. In Vermont, Greg in Chittenden County wants to know, what steps and positions will you take to keep Vermont affordable and reduce property taxes? And Lieutenant Governor, we'll start with you.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Sure, there's a number of things there. One, I will continue to reach out to the governor's office whenever he's ready to work together to really look at our education fund expenses, and our Human Services fund expenses around the kids that need both. We've seen under this governor about a $60 million tax shift on to the property tax side of the equation by pushing human services costs onto the education fund. And that's something that people don't realize. And when we compare ourselves to other states, we're not comparing apples to apples, because other states pay for that with human services. So that's simply a management side of things as well as an efficiency side of things. But also, we're seeing the wealthiest 1% of Vermonters pay only 3% of their income towards the education fund. Whereas working class middle 60% of homeowners pay between three and a half and four and a half percent. So, if we made the income sensitive portion of property taxes applied to everybody, it would be about a $30 million savings for working class people and a $30 million increase on the wealthiest. So those are two of them. There's more but yeah, I’m out of time.
Mikaela Lefrak: Two follow up questions for you here. One, you said Gov. Scott, "whenever he's ready to work together." Should Vermonters be concerned that you and the governor don't have a good working relationship?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: I don't think they should be concerned. They've seen that he and I both do reasonably good work. People seem to like it. They've reelected both of us many times. But I do think it's important for people to recognize that sometimes when the governor talks about issues like the property tax increase, for instance, he wagged his finger at the Legislature, when really, he should be more honestly explaining how the system works. Which is that that was the vote of all the people across the state in their local budgets, and it's simply a formula. It would have been 18%, but the Legislature added more funding, his proposal would have put us into debt. It would have made us spend down all our reserves, it would have ruined our credit rating and would have put more on a credit card for next year. He hasn't really been forthright about that. So, I think at this point, people want honesty from all of us more than papering over issues to get along.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Thomas Renner, what steps and positions would you take to keep Vermont affordable and reduce property taxes?
Thomas Renner: Property taxes are definitely front of everybody's mind. That's what I hear as I travel across the state talking with people, and the education portion is huge on that. You know, as deputy mayor of Winooski, I worked really hard to bring down our municipal tax rate. Of course, I didn't have any influence over the education portion of that. But we need to look into new revenue forms of funding education, whether that be sales taxes, something like that, to contribute towards education. And we also need to look at how we fund education creatively, we need to look at how our schools are operating creatively. You know, we know that we have a dwindling population of students, there's an impact to that there's a cost to that. So, we really need to be looking at the entire education system very holistically, and proposing new changes if that's what we need in order to make it affordable for Vermonters. Vermonters want students to have the best education that they can. I haven't talked to a single Vermonter who doesn't want that. But what's concerning is when you're paying more money for education, but the students are getting less, when music classes are being cut language classes are being cut. People don't understand what they're paying more money for less. And that's what we really need to address.
Mikaela Lefrak: You mentioned the possibility of increasing the sales tax that's on the table for you.
Thomas Renner: Yeah, I think it's an option that we should explore, you know, a sales tax isn't just something that Vermonters contributing to its visitors as well. And I think that educating our youth is something that everybody who comes to Vermont should take part in.
Mikaela Lefrak: One brief follow up question for each of you. David Zuckerman, lieutenant governor, the issues with Vermont property tax equation came to a head this past spring. But this has been building for years and years, you've served more than two decades in the Vermont House and the Senate. You're currently in your third term as lieutenant governor. What responsibility do you think the Democratic and Progressive parties in the state, and yourself by extension, bear for this rise in property taxes this year?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, I think it's a product of years of work to make sure everyone has an equal opportunity to raise funds for their schools. People forget that our current formula was put in place, because property, wealthy towns could have very low taxes, and fund really good schools. And property poor towns, those rural small towns with 200 or 500 people with a low tax base, and it really struggled to raise funds for their schools. So, we created a system that made it so everybody could have the funding for their schools at a fair tax rate. Now, we're looking at changes that need to be made. The governor has actually the staff and the administration to create new ideas. And he's been in office for eight years, the Legislature is seasonal. They're doing their best they've made changes over the years. The last change with the waiting kind of threw things off a bit. And that's part of what triggered all of this. I wasn't in the legislature during those two years. So, I don't really take much responsibility for that.
Mikaela Lefrak: And Thomas Renner, on that note, I'm curious to hear what you would have advocated for were you in a position like lieutenant governor during this past legislative session, maybe spoken to the governor about. He put forward his own proposals about how to lower that property tax burden. Do you agree or disagree with what he put forth?
Thomas Renner: You know, the governor is very popular, but I'm a Democrat. And I didn't necessarily agree with everything that he was doing. What I do commend him for is hearing the concerns that Vermonters have been talking about the concerns of affordability. His approach wasn't the best one. But I think that if I had been in that lieutenant governor's office, I would have tried to work with him on that and work with the legislature and getting to an approach that the Legislature would have appreciated, that the Democrats who are in control would have appreciated. It's work that I've done on Winooski, as I mentioned, bringing down that property tax rate while keeping the programs that Winooski residents deserve. Which is what we ended up doing is going a little slower on the things that we want it to get to. I think it's important to do that at the state level as well to look at things pragmatically. Thank you.
Education
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Well, we've touched on education. Let's dive a little bit deeper. The issue Ruth in Addison County cares most about is public education, a common topic in our Citizens Agenda. Ruth is really worried about the tenor of the conversation around school funding and consolidation. Meanwhile, the citizen in Washington County wants to know, how do we reform education spending without gutting our schools? So, we've touched on this, let's go a bit deeper. Thomas Renner.
Thomas Renner: So, my dad and my stepmom are teachers, a lot of my friends are teachers, I have strong appreciation for that, for that work, and for what they do to prepare the next generation of Vermonters and Americans. Consolidating schools, you know, it's something that people talk about frequently when we're talking about saving money. And I think it really needs to be looked at if we're talking about putting kids on a bus for, you know, 30 minutes to an hour to consolidate that school. That doesn't make any sense, that's going to negatively impact the child. If we're talking about consolidating schools that are 10 minutes away from each other, maybe that does make sense. Maybe that's something we should look into. And there could be a cost savings there and children won't be impacted as much. I think that that's the type of conversations that we need to start having in Montpelier to reduce costs, so that we can keep the level of education at a high standard to address this second question that the viewer posed. Nobody wants an education system that doesn't prepare remote students to go to the best colleges, the best trade schools, we want to make sure that we're funding that. But we really need to look at it in a different way.
Mikaela Lefrak: Related question to school funding. There's a lot of different maintenance costs right now in Vermont's public schools. Do you think the school should continue testing for PCBs? And if so, how do we fund mitigation efforts like that?
Thomas Renner: Yeah, they definitely should keep testing, we need to make sure that our students are safe. In terms of the mitigation efforts, you know, Winooski just did a brand-new school. We bonded for a cost a lot of money and what we paid for it for a long time, towns that can afford to do that should look into it. towns that cannot are definitely going to need support from the federal government. We built all of these schools, many of them in the '60s, and there was no plan to keep them up. Now, it's the turn of the federal government and state government to make those investments. Because we know that it's not just PFAs that are in these schools. Some of these schools have floors that are breaking apart, they have AC or heating units that don't work. That doesn't lead to the best way for our students to be educated.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. And same question to you, Lieutenant Governor. How do we reform education spending without gutting our schools?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, there's a number of factors and one that I will say, might distinguish this quite a bit, is I do not support raising the sales tax for more money for schools. That is a very regressive tax. And while tourists might pay some of that it's still a huge portion is paid by working class Vermonters who just can't take any more on their shoulders. What I would consider doing is second homes. We’re the second highest second homeownership state in the country. We have 58,000 second homes in Vermont, and 1/3 of our towns, they pay a lower property tax rate than primary residences. So there's a revenue stream there that I think is one you should tap into, to make sure the burden is not just on Vermonters, but not in the regressive way of a sales tax. I would consider looking at high school consolidation, more than elementary school because I agree particularly with young kids, a first grader, second grader, a one hour bus trip is just not in the cards. That's not good for those kids. Ideally, an hour bus trips aren’t good for anybody but a high schooler can get more done on a bus there. They're a bit more mature. But I think, you know, the Carson decision is a huge issue as well. We need to make sure the private schools have to meet the same standards as public schools if they're going to get public dollars. And I'll just close by saying when it comes to education, I've got the endorsement of the teachers union, the NEA, and I think teachers know what they're doing. We need to let them teach.
Mikaela Lefrak: Ruth in Addison County, who I quoted earlier, was particularly concerned about the tenor of the conversation around school funding. Earlier this year, you [Lt. Gov. Zuckerman] sent out an email urging senators to vote down Gov. Scott's pick for education secretary, Zoie Saunders. Gov. Scott then called you out for questioning her record and tying her to Florida's efforts to remove some books from school libraries. Saunders also said that there were false claims. You later publicly apologized to her after her nomination was voted down by the Senate. In this time of such partisan politics and heated rhetoric. Why did you send that email?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, I thought it was really important to look at our schools. Our schools are the foundation of our towns of our communities and the future of our kids. This governor has pushed back on public schools, every single year in office, he has denigrated our public schools. He has said it's too expensive, which is partly true, but he doesn't point out why he doesn't produce solutions. And when he provided a nominee, picked by a group of people that he mostly nominated onto the education board, so when he says I was limited by who they put forward. That group has his political ideology to shrink public schools, increased private schools with public dollars. Everything about that nomination was in question. And I wasn't the only one to question it. The one error I made, and to own that up, was that I connected her getting an award from the state of Florida with Gov. DeSantis. And that was an inaccurate tie. The rest of it was comments about Florida. I didn't say she wanted to banned books. But if you look at that school system, and that politics, that's a fair concern about Florida relative to critical thinking and free thinking that we believe in here.
Candidates' questions for each other
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Last biennium, the Senate passed a bill to study ranked choice voting, a bill that would allow candidates and voters more choices and eliminate the spoiler problem and three races. They passed it on a vote of 23 to seven. The House didn't take up the bill. Do you agree with House leadership that stopped the bill? Or do you agree with Senate leadership that passed it?
Thomas Renner: I am a fan of ranked choice voting. I've seen how it works on other places. Burlington has it going on there. We've talked about doing it in Winooski. Yeah, I support it.
Mikaela Lefrak: Do you have any follow up?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Is there something you could pass on to House leadership that express your frustration with they didn't take it up when the plan had been, come over from the Senate and pass the bill?
Thomas Renner: I'll be seeing some of them this week. I can have that conversation.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Great.
Mikaela Lefrak: All right, Thomas Renner, your turn to ask a question.
Thomas Renner: Certainly. So in a recent forum that we attended, we were asked a question about President Biden, who happened to be the day that he had passed on the baton to Kamala Harris. And you spoke very much in favor of empowering young leaders of the need for diverse folks in politics. When do you think it will be your time to pass on the torch to a younger, more diverse leader?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, I think when someone runs for the office that has the breadth of experience needed to be governor on day one, if something happens, that's important. I also think it's important to consider all the different factors with every candidate. So for me, diversity is incredibly important. And it is absolutely whenever things are close, I will vote for the more diverse candidate. When it comes to the Secretary of State, for instance, I supported Sarah Copeland Hanzas, who I have a lot of respect for. Chris Winters was also highly qualified. So for me, identity matters. But it's not the number one issue.
Mikaela Lefrak: Do you have a follow up question?
Thomas Renner: That answers the question. Thank you.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you, Lieutenant Governor, your turn.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: All right. Another last biennium question. There was a big divide amongst Democrats, because you talked about Democratic priorities, but there are different priorities. The House Democrats went with very structured and specific changes to Act 250, plus money to go into affordable housing marginal tax rate now. Senate leadership on the Economic Development Committee was more in line with the governor's plans to open free market to create more housing to somehow lower prices. Again, which of those versions do you prefer? Investment to make it affordable or taking apart a lot of Act 250?
Thomas Renner: I definitely think we need to continue making edits to Act 250. The work that the Legislature did last biennium, the work that Sen. Ram did, and her housing bill, I think are all things that are moving us to where we need to be. Act 250 was created at a time when it made a lot of sense when it was created. I don't think that we should completely tear the thing apart. I think that we just need to continue editing it so that we can get the housing that we want in Vermont, so we can get affordable housing, and also keep what makes Vermont amazing.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: He didn't really answer which of those versions, the House version —
Thomas Renner: It's a mixture of the both. I would want to continue those conversations to try to get those versions closer to each other.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thomas Renner.
Thomas Renner: So I'd like to talk a little more about property taxes because it's so important. The work I did in Winooski, we took a 14% property tax that had been proposed to us from our city manager and I worked really hard to bring that down to 8%, which I'm so thankful I did now because if we had been at 14%, plus what the school needed. I don't think many Winooski residents would have been able to afford that. What specifically have you done in order to lower taxes for Vermonters?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, quite a few things. Certainly over many years I've worked on moving towards increasing our progressivity in our income taxes. And at times the Legislature has passed such bills. As I've pointed out, I've also supported changes like moving to an income based tax for all people for education funding, not just the 70% of working class Vermonters. For many years, I supported a $2 rooms tax to put towards affordable housing. And when you look at rooms because you were discussing tourism earlier, 70 or 80% of our room rentals are out of staters that would make that a less regressive tax to go towards affordable housing, for instance.
Mikaela Lefrak: Do you have a follow up question?
Thomas Renner: No.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. I have a follow up question on that then. Just yesterday, we had the debate with the Republican candidates for the same position for lieutenant governor there. We discussed when we were talking about housing at large we talked about short-term rentals. Somebody had written into us from our Citizens Agenda to ask, “Should there be more regulation of short term rentals either on a statewide or a local level? And would that do anything to address the shortage of affordable housing?” I'd love to hear both of your answers on that in about 30 seconds. And Thomas Renner. Let's start with you.
Thomas Renner: Yeah, so we just enacted something in Winooski to address short-term rentals. It's doesn't go as far as we want. But again, that's that pragmatic approach that I was speaking about where we're trying something now, which is essentially registration and charging fees to folks who operate short-term rentals. We have variances on that depending if you live in your home, or if you're an out of stater, for example. But we know that short term rentals just in Winooski alone have taken 80 properties off of the market. And across Vermont, it's hundreds upon hundreds. It definitely ties into the crisis that we have in housing right now. And I think that we should be exploring ways on how to change that.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Lieutenant Governor.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Absolutely, I worked with Michael Sirotkin years ago trying to just get a short-term rental registry. So statewide, we don't even know exactly how many there are. You mentioned hundreds, I would say thousands. And if we then had a registry, and we knew how many there were, we knew if they were on, for instance, by someone in their own home, occasionally, you know, doing a bed and breakfast or a couple of weekends here and there for the extra room in their house or over their garage. That's one thing. But when you've got hedge funders and New Yorkers and Massachusetts folks buying property in Vermont, that should be long-term rentals for working class Vermonters. And now it's short-term rentals for tourists. They should definitely be paying more.
Mikaela Lefrak How do you separate those two types of rentals?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, I think first of all, you've got to have them registered. So you know where they are, you can then know who owns them? Are they in home, for instance? Because is it in a home that's also a primary residence? Or is it not a primary residence, if it's not a primary residence property, then you know that it's someone doing short-term rentals as an investment. It could also be a Vermonter doing it as an investment for that matter. You certainly can't discriminate in state, out of state, but you could say if it's in your home, that's one thing. I think that's somewhat of what you maybe did. But if it's an investment, that's another.
Mikaela Lefrak: I will turn over the same question for you. I think that, you know, it's a great idea to say, you know, we should let people who are doing this on a very small local level, continue to have a short term rental, but if it's a big corporation, then no. How do you differentiate between the two, practically?
Thomas Renner: Yeah, so a rental registry is really important for that, you know, we have one Winooski so we've been able to do that work of finding out who has a local owner, who is somebody who even owns in Winooski, but has Airbnbs in Winooski. So we've been able to drill that data down, and it's important to be able to have that rental registry to do that. So I think implementing that and getting people on board to do that is important. And then, you know, the further steps and like I said, the reason we've started in Winooski by just doing fees and fines for some things is because it is difficult to, you know, take away somebody's business for them, for example. So we need to do what we can now and then change the regulations for future Airbnb, future owners.
Health care
Mikaela Lefrak: We're going to start [this segment] with a question about health care. An anonymous listener in Rutland County asks, how can we entice more doctors and health care professionals to move to Vermont? Lieutenant Governor, we will have you solve the health care crisis in 30 seconds.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, a couple things. One is, in the long run, I think we have to move to a universal health care system, we have a huge amount of money still going to the folks that do the paperwork to collect insurance payments and go back to the patients and go back to the insurance agents. And that money could actually go towards funding actual health care, whether it's nurses or doctors. We also earlier were talking about housing, housing is actually a burden for people across the economic spectrum. There's just not enough of it partly because so many have been moved to Airbnbs or second homes. So again, addressing some of those issues, as we talked about earlier, I think would make it more possible for more doctors to be here.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Thomas Renner.
Thomas Renner: Yeah. I love this question. I used to work at the hospital. And I was very involved in trying to bring new doctors that would solve a lot of the wait times that they have up there. That's not necessarily the doctors don't want to come to Vermont, they in fact do want to come to Vermont. But it's housing everything almost always ties back to housing. We would get doctors who were literally ready to move here had started looking at school districts for their kids and couldn't find housing. So that's why when I talk about housing, it's not just affordable housing. Doctors can't live in affordable housing. We need housing every single level. Thank you.
Elder care
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, according to a recent report released by the Vermont Department of Health, one in three Vermonters will be over the age of 60 by 2030. Peg in Rutland County is concerned that there isn't enough elder housing, housing again, and assisted care for aging Vermonters. How do you think the state should address the growing needs of older Vermonters? And is this a role of the state? Thomas Renner, we're starting with you this time.
Thomas Renner: It’s definitely a concern. And you know, housing and then another housing problem is these folks are living in these large homes where they raise their families, and they want to leave, but they can't if they were able to that would free up this big home or somebody can move in and raise their family. So that particular part of the housing crisis touches so many others. We need to encourage folks to move To Vermont to work the jobs that are necessary to take care of Vermonters who are aging and make sure that they can age and dignity in terms of the state being involved in that it's all about making Vermont an attractive place for people to move, investing in the housing so they can come here and then encouraging that type of that type of building that type of shift of life.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, I think we did touch on earlier with the housing topic. And if we were to build smaller unit, denser housing in town, and village centers for one, for a lot of those seniors that aren't necessarily in a position where they need to be in assisted living yet, but they could live in a compact village town center, where you could still walk to get some of your basic needs met. That would be the kind of housing that folks could move out of those bigger older houses into to free up that housing. I would just add that since we were discussing age and getting out of the way at 52. I don't consider myself that old. And if you know a third of Vermonters are over 60, then I guess I'm close to that cohort. And I hope I get all their votes because I've got more experience of living at this age then then maybe some others.
Party affiliation
Mikaela Lefrak: I see what you did there. Lauri in Chittenden County identifies as socially liberal and fiscally conservative, which is how many Vermonters would describe our governor, Phil Scott. Laurie writes, "in discussions with fellow Vermonters I find this position incredibly common." Do either of you identify in that way? And if not, can you give an example of a time in which you work successfully with people who do?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: First of all, it's a complex question. Because ultimately, I am very fiscally conservative as a farmer, running a small business, and you squeezing every value out of every dollar to make sure the business can run successfully. And I think about that the same way in government, which is why I took to the governor the idea of reducing the bureaucracy between the human services world and the education world. So that's one form of fiscal conservative when it comes to taxes. I am much more liberal, because or progressive, because since Reagan, we've seen tax cuts for the wealthier and we've seen our services decline and our investments in our schools decline, and that's why we're hitting everyday working people. So it's a complex set of words.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. And Thomas Renner, I’ll give you a little extra time.
Thomas Renner: Yeah, I wouldn't say that I am fiscally conservative. I'm definitely liberal in my policies and my beliefs of of what I do believe is that I understand and listen to Vermonters and understand the financial difficulties that a lot of Vermonters are feeling right now that small businesses are feeling right now. And I think those voices need to be elevated. If that's being conservative, then that's what we can call it. But I think it's more about making sure that we're doing policy and bringing forward programs that Vermonters deserve, but also that they can afford. Thank you.
Gun control
Mikaela Lefrak: Katheryn in Rutland County asks, Do we have too much, enough, or too little gun control in Vermont?
Thomas Renner: So you know, Vermont has a long history of being a sportsman's state. But we also, as I speak to Vermonters, nobody is afraid of background checks or making sure that their weapons are secured safely in their homes, so that nobody can access them who shouldn't be accessing them safely. That said, I think there's more work that we can do on gun control. You know, when we know that there's a problem across our country, and we never want to see any of the terrible things that happen in schools and elsewhere. So yes, there's more work that we can do, in terms of amplifying background checks, making sure that people who shouldn't have guns don't have them, and particularly making sure that people are safe, I think about I'm over time, but I just want to make one point about, you know, relationships that have fallen apart and women who are threatened under any type of violence, making sure that that person they were in a relationship with cannot access guns.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Lieutenant Governor?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, I'd say we've actually done quite a bit in the last few years, and they've been really good legislation, whether it was the red flag laws, whether it was expanding background checks, whether it was a waiting period, particularly around suicide or crimes of passion, as Thomas just talked about with the unfortunate reality that primarily men injure women in those circumstances. I do still think there's work to be done, particularly around high-powered — the term some people use is assault weapons, but of course, other people say that's the wrong term — but as a whole, people don't need that for hunting. They don't need that for our traditional uses. And I think we need to really look at that area.
Mikaela Lefrak: I have a brief follow up question then for both of you. Should Vermonters be allowed to buy assault rifles in the state of Vermont?
David Zuckerman: I don't think so. We don't need them. People don't need them.
Thomas Renner: I don't see why we need them. And I come from a hunting family. You don't want to use that for hunting. Actually, it's really bad for hunting.
Retaining college graduates
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. The Green Mountain Job and Retention Program repays up to $5,000 a year in student loans for Vermont college graduates who stay in state and work for at least two years. But many Vermont businesses despite this programming system are still struggling to hire enough workers. As lieutenant governor, how would you help convince college graduates to stay in Vermont? Do you support the continuation of this program?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, I definitely support it. And maybe it needs to be expanded. But also, we're gonna go back to housing over and over and over again, like I said, 58,000 second homes in Vermont, if just 5,000 of those became primary residences, that would be a huge shift in the availability of housing for working people. Or if we actually moved a number of those investment Airbnbs — I'll use that term rather than in state or out of state owned — investment Airbnbs back into the long term rental market, you would have the opportunity for high school and college graduates to stay in Vermont. Housing is a huge issue. Vermont is very desirable. People with a lot of money are buying up the properties and making it impossible for others to live here.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. Thomas Renner?
Thomas Renner: Yes. Student loans are something I know all too well. I am still paying mine and many times have difficulty paying my and so expanding on that program, I think is important to help Vermonters who need it. And yes, we're back to housing. When I talked about my little cousins who are at UVM, who, you know, one of them graduated and left. And it wasn't because he wanted to leave it was because he couldn't find housing here. He left, he went to Boston and was able to find a job unable to find housing. So we need to change that narrative of of housing here. We need to build the housing. And we also need to make it a place that is attractive for businesses to do business so that kids don't feel like they have to go to Boston to make a high earning career. Thank you.
Veteran services
Mikaela Lefrak: We had an anonymous listener in Orange County ask us a question about housing the homeless and in particular, veterans who are struggling to find housing. We keep coming back to housing again and again. It's a big topic in our citizens agenda. So I'd like to ask you here to speak specifically to veterans who might be struggling not just with housing with other cost issues, maybe reference a time in which you have worked with the veteran or military community to support. Thomas Renner, we’ll start with you.
Thomas Renner: So my husband's a veteran. He served in Iraq and he received a Purple Heart for the work that he did there and what he what happened to him while he was there So veterans issues, to say the least, are incredibly important to me. When I worked for Congresswoman Bella and I covered veterans issues, I worked extensively with the VA. And homelessness within the veteran community is something that we talked about with the VA all the time. As far as I'm concerned, if you have been willing to give your life to our country, we should make sure that your mental health is taken care of your health is taken care of that you have a home to live in, that if life gets you down, we are taking care of you. At the very least. Thank you,
Mikaela Lefrak: Lieutenant Governor.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Yeah, I think my contemporary here stated it really well, in that, you know, these folks are veterans have put their lives on the line for all of us to have the freedoms and liberties that we have. And it is incredibly important that we make sure they at least have housing. I mean, it's it's kind of absurd that we have homeless veterans, I was down in D.C. at a conference. And within sight of the White House you've got folks living on the street, who have served our country and it was it was heartbreaking to see most of the veterans programs are done through federal money and federal government. So I appreciate the work that Thomas did through Congresswoman Welch's office — Congresswoman Balint's office and Sen. Leahy's office, but there's always more we can do. And that's one of the reasons I've supported housing our homeless. We had 1,000 homeless long before COVID. And we didn't have these programs. And I think we need to continue them.
Drug use
Mikaela Lefrak: An anonymous listener in Chittenden County asks, how do you plan to address the growing illegal drug use that is so openly visible in our cities and towns? They write that they understand it is a very complex problem that needs a multi-pronged approach — so please avoid using that phrasing here — but they do want to know, how will you help? Lieutenant Governor, we'll start with you.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Sure. You know, a few years ago, I was brought up to an old seminary in Johnson as the Tatro family was considering what to do after their daughter had suffered from an overdose death and they were heartbroken. And they said we want to do something about it. And they've since built up Jenna's Promise, which many people have heard about. We absolutely need to find a way to expand programs like Jenna's Promise where not only are there services to deal with the acute situations, but also housing and job placement and support for six months to a year to get people back on their feet into new circles of community so that they don't drop back into this the challenges of substance use disorder. We need to have fewer people get into that as well. And that's back to housing, and economics, of course.
Mikaela Lefrak: Thank you. And Thomas Renner?
Thomas Renner: Yeah, I know exactly what this caller is talking about. I've worked downtown and I have seen, you know, these people who are struggling, and we need to be supporting them on multiple levels. You know, I don't think anybody I know — that nobody wants to be in that situation where they are openly using substances out in public. So we need to be investing in mental health. We need to be investing in job programs and housing and all those things because you can have a program or somebody, you know, talks to a psychiatrist and gets the medication that they need. But if they don't have somewhere to live, if they don't have the supports to help them get a job, they're just gonna go right back into that lifestyle, or it's gonna be very hard to not do that.
Lightning round
Mikaela Lefrak: Do you think we should increase wages for Vermont lawmakers, including the lieutenant governor? Thomas Renner.
Thomas Renner: I don't know about the lieutenant governor. I think it's a pretty decent salary. But for our lawmakers, yes. It keeps people out of that building because people do not they don't get paid enough. And a lot of Vermonters can't afford to live on that salary.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Lawmakers? Yes. Lieutenant governor? No. And, again, we lost a couple of legislators either not running or even last year, left right at the beginning of their term because the economics do not work. And they’re great minds. You're gonna talk about diversity and getting young people in? That's part of it.
Mikaela Lefrak: Is sports betting a net positive or negative for Vermonters?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Negative.
Thomas Renner: Yeah, it can lead to some really, some behaviors that we don't want, the tax portion, sure, is positive. But what comes with that?
Mikaela Lefrak: Should Vermont mandate paid family leave for all workers? Thomas Renner?
Thomas Renner: Yes.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Absolutely. Every Western civilized society has paid family medical leave, and universal health care, by the way. And those are economic needs in our state.
Mikaela Lefrak All right. How do you pay for it?
Thomas Renner: You know, I think that we talk about taxing our folks who have done the best in our society and asking them to pitch in a little bit more.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, when America was great, according to some people, the highest tax bracket was actually 80 to 90%. So I do think those at the top of the economic spectrum could afford to pay more so our society works better.
Mikaela Lefrak: Last question. We're in the midst of the Summer Olympics right now. What sport are you most enjoying watching? Lieutenant Governor?
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well swimming, because my wife was a phenomenal swimmer in high school. And she tells me every detail about the strokes and everything else, and they're just always to the wire. They're a lot of fun.
Thomas Renner: Rugby has been really cool because we have a Vermont star, but swimming in Seine – I've seen the Seine. It's very interesting that that's where they're doing it.
Closing statements
Mikaela Lefrak: Well, I love that we can all agree that we love the Olympics. Time now for a closing statement from each candidate. The order was determined randomly before the show and Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman, you'll start us off.
Lt. Gov. David Zuckerman: Well, thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity. And I hope after this discussion, you'll give me your vote between now and the Aug. 13 primary. I was inspired by Bernie a number of decades ago, and I've been a public servant for you for 24 of the last 28 years, and have successfully fought for issues like increasing minimum wage, building more affordable housing, reducing your exposure to toxic chemicals. I've led on civil rights like marriage equality. I was the lead sponsor in 2005 of that legislation and criminal justice reforms. I've worked really hard to address the opioid crisis. And I've worked tirelessly to fight climate change, both professionally as a farmer, and also as a policymaker. I know the education funding system is hurting the working class folks the most. And second, homeowners and folks with higher income earners could pay more, because they are paying a lower tax rate than you are. The Senate will have more than half of its members as new senators in the last two sessions. And I think my experience in both passing legislation and running the process is incredibly important at this time. And I hope you'll support me for the next few years.
Thomas Renner: Vermont Public Radio thank you for hosting. Mikaela, thank you for moderating. David, thanks for being here. I'm Thomas Renner. I'm running for lieutenant governor to bring a new voice to Montpelier, a voice with a different background, to bring new leadership to Montpelier as someone who represents the margins, the marginalized, regular Vermonters and diverse Vermonters. I'm running to bring leadership to the state that represents where Vermont is going and not where it's been. I'm running as a Democrat because I believe in our party's values. A party that champions workers, women, uplifts young voices, empowers diverse voices. As deputy mayor of Winooski, I've worked on the issues that Vermonters care about — housing, affordability, opportunity. And as a municipal leader, I've had the privilege of hearing folks’ problems right at the grassroots level. Throughout my career working for some of Vermont's most respected public servants, Sen. Leahy and Congresswoman Balint and my work in the health care sector, I've been dedicated to one thing above all else: championing Vermonters and working for Vermonters and dedicating myself to those people. As your lieutenant governor, I'll be dedicated to doing just that every single day for Vermonters, lifting up voices, empowering people and making sure that people are involved. If you want to learn more about me, please visit thomasrenner.com. And please vote for me on Aug. 13. Thank you.
Broadcast live on July 31 at 1 p.m.; rebroadcast at 7 p.m.
This debate is part of Vermont Public’s Citizens Agenda approach to election coverage. We’re asking a simple question: What do you want the candidates to be discussing as they compete for your votes? Front Porch Forum is our lead outreach partner for this project.
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