The Made Here documentary Backlash: Misogyny in the Digital Age from Montreal directors Guylaine Maroist and Lea Clermont Dion follows four women whose lives have been particularly affected by online violence: A politician in Italy; a French YouTuber, a young teacher in Quebec and Kiah Morris, a former Vermont state representative.
A warning, this film contains language and scenes that some may find disturbing. Viewer discretion is advised.
Kiah Morris recently sat down with Homegoings Executive Producer and Host Myra Flynn to talk about her appearance in the film and what came next. You can watch the video here. A transcript of the interview appears below.
Myra Flynn: What's up everyone? I'm Myra Flynn, host and executive producer of the Vermont Public podcast Homegoings. And I'm here today with Kiah Morris. Who is so many things: She's a Vermonter, a former state representative, activist and equity consultant. You wear all the hats. She's also been a guest on our show before, Homegoings. So welcome, Kiah.
Kiah Morris: Thank you, Myra.
Myra Flynn: Today we’re discussing the Made Here film Backlash: Misogyny in the Digital Age. The film tells the shocking story of four women leaders whose lives were overturned by cyber violence. Kiah, you were one of those women featured in this film.
Kiah Morris: Yes. It was an intense experience. And what was interesting about it is that as they were telling the stories and the different ways that cyber violence was showing up for these women across the globe, there were some of us who it went from being sort of in this liminal state of the internet to becoming real, like corporally, it happens within reality, and the violence moves from a space of theoretic terrorism to real life harassment and danger.
Myra Flynn: I want to talk to you a little bit about this, like, nuanced intersectionality of this story, because this film is very much focused on the cyber violence and attacks against women. But you are holding a couple different titles here, in identity. You are a Black woman. Throughout the film, you are the only deeply melanated woman who is being interviewed here. And I sometimes personally just struggle with that intersectionality when I'm like, "Oh, feminism is that even for me?" Because it so often takes a backseat to the harm and the pain that comes at me racially. And, one of your abusers said, "I hate Kiah Morris, and it's not because of the color of her skin." Is that true? Did you buy that?
Kiah Morris: Never, not once. We already know that Black women are the least protected. I believe it was Malcolm X who said that the Black woman is the least respected and least protected individual in the United States. This is a reality. Our lives, our personhood are deemed as less human. And that messaging is one that has lasted and resonated for centuries. It is difficult to unpack, and it can be almost triggered back into reality if no one questions it. The individuals who were there who started this, recognizing that it was a national group, a national hate organization that signaled what is going on here in this liberal state that this Black woman is representing this white community. How dare she? The audacity of doing so. How dare she come here and try to make change? It was an easy fit to be able to say, "She's coming. And she's not just disrupting our bucolic way of life. She's coming to take your guns. She came from Chicago, that horrible city that birthed Barack Obama, that she's here and has been sent through them to come and change your way of life."
Myra Flynn: And so much coded language too about not being from Vermont, not being a Vermonter.
Kiah Morris: Correct. It was — it was always there, was always an element of race that cannot be ignored. It is a reality that in the years since my experience with this, there have been so many Black women who have chosen to run for elected office, take on appointed seats, and have stepped down in short time because the risk to themselves and their families were not worth it. The passion they had for the communities, the contributions they wanted to make, were not enough. That altruism was, at the end of the day, not going to be enough. No one should have to martyr themselves. And Black women are an obvious physical, visible target.
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Myra Flynn: I think it's hard not to notice in the opening credits of this film that the creators of this film decided explicitly not to interview any of the abusers, to hear their side of the story, because they really wanted to amplify the voices of women, the women who are in this film in particular, like yours. And I wonder how that sat with you? And also, if you were to hear from these people and they were to apologize, is that even anything that you would want to hear?
Kiah Morris: Yeah. So that's a complicated component of this type of storytelling and trying to speak these truths. The reality is, the work of these abusers is to dehumanize. There is no counterpoint from when they're posting their hate. There is no counterpoint of them saying, "Well, but she's, she's a mom. And as a person, there's some redeeming qualities." That's not how this works. It is intended to separate the person from the actual experience. Right? From their lived experience, who makes them who they are. It was chilling when I was in the courtroom trying to get an order of protection against Max Misch who was one of several individuals who made it their life's work for quite a period of time to really try and destroy my own life. Hearing them in the court and talking about their justification for these actions, about their hateful beliefs, their antisemitism, even though they are Jewish themselves. The juxtaposition of the intensity of the hatred was a lot to deal with. It was a lot to deal with, and no one needs to hear their justification. That is a problem. And that's a challenge. And that's a challenge that modern media has.
Myra Flynn: Is it okay to talk with you a little bit about some of the fallout from this experience? Because I've seen you step down from office your entire career. You moved.
Kiah Morris: Yes.
Myra Flynn: Uprooted your life?
Kiah Morris: Yes.
Myra Flynn: Uprooted your family's life?
Kiah Morris: Yes.
Myra Flynn: To the next town over.
Kiah Morris: Yes.
Myra Flynn: To Brattleboro, which is so close to Bennington. I have questions for you about why you didn't just leave the state. Why do you stay?
Kiah Morris: And this was hard. It's still hard to this day. My family questions why I live in Vermont. They are perplexed as to why I choose to have Vermont be my home. I am one of several racial refugees within this state who had to leave for their own safety, for their own well-being, to move somewhere else where they knew they were not protected, where they came from, and now needed to find a new place to become, to become their home. I had raised my son in Bennington. I had invested deeply into the community in a multitude of ways. I was very active in that area before I even got into office. And all of that, the friends that were made, my child's best friends since infancy, cousins, suddenly that was going to have to be torn apart and separated by space and time, because it was no longer safe to remain there. There were days that I didn't know, who I would run into. And even now, as I return down to that area to visit family or friends, I'm extremely cautious. I am always watchful. I am still unsettled.
Myra Flynn: Is there any place where you actually have peace from this?
Kiah Morris: There tends to be a greater sense of safety when you're around your people. If you're able to be in diverse communities that are meaningfully diverse. if you're able to again, reaffirm the importance of who you are by seeing yourself represented in all sectors of life, you can find your foods, hear your music, the things that say you exist and you're important. Those are what gives you the strength to be able to move on. And as communities and throughout history, we can look at what happened post-Civil War and reconstruction and all of these spaces where Blacks, indigenous folks who were on the margins created their own communities and there was safety in there. There was a space to be away from the hatred. And all of that was destroyed very intentionally, leaving everyone to wonder, where is a good place to be? So if the question is, as a racial refugee where I am right now, do I feel safe? I will say on some levels I feel safer, but that is because of the hard work that others are doing behind the scenes to help keep me safe. Monitoring my internet so that I do not have to absorb it. Ensuring that there's someone there to deescalate, or for just about every event that I do, thinking about these things differently and finding a way forward so that as we're taking the slings and arrows and the microaggressions that turn into actions, that there's somebody else watching and there's someone else caring,
Myra Flynn: Once people watch this film, what is your hope that they take away from it?
Kiah Morris: I hope they recognize how pervasive this is. We screened this film at the Statehouse here in Vermont, the first showing in the United States in 2022. The number of women legislators who came forth and talked about the hundreds of harassing emails and messages that they receive on a daily basis, the fact that folks are still almost in some ways afraid to talk about the levels of threat that they receive. No one wants to make it real. You don't want to have to sit and think about that. You don't want to have to feel fearful for your life and for your family. We've seen this happen. I hope that others will get involved. It is my hope that others will not stand for this and that they will hold the communities, will hold them accountable, will hold those actors accountable. It's going to have to come from the communities, because the entities themselves are incapable of doing so, and the person who is harmed should not have to do that work. It is my hope that people see that it has real effects. It's not just rhetoric, it's reality.
Myra Flynn: Thank you, Kiah, so much for being here with us today. You can hear more from Kiah on my podcast, Homegoings. I think our last episode talked about beauty but still ended up here in some ways, right? It's all very much related and you can watch the film Backlash: Misogyny in the Digital Age as part of Vermont Public's Made Here series. Thank you, Kiah.
Kiah Morris: Thank you, Myra.
Backlash: Misogyny in the Digital Age premieres on Vermont Public's main TV channel at 10 p.m. on Thursday, Nov. 7 and is available now on demand.
