"What class are you?" It's a question that Vermont Public reporter Erica Heilman has been asking people for a series about class and cultural divides that we are airing all week. In this fourth installment, Erica speaks with former state legislator John Rodgers of West Glover.
Note: This story was produced for the ear. We recommend listening to the audio.
Find the other installments of the "What class are you?" series here.
John Rodgers runs a construction business up in West Glover most of the year. He runs a plowing business in the winter, he rents properties, he runs a hemp company. He's a stonemason. And for 16 years, he served in the Vermont Legislature — eight years in the Senate and eight in the House.
I met him on his farm, which has been in his family for about 200 years. And we sat in his truck and talked about what it costs to be in the Legislature, and some of the cultural tensions that he is feeling in the state right now.
Erica: "So talk about the Legislature a little bit… how the — how the landscape of the Legislature has changed."
John: "There used to be a lot more farmers and a lot more working class people. Again, it is very hard for a working class person to run for the Legislature. Because like myself — and I don't want anybody's sympathy, I've made my own bed — but when it snowed in the winter, I'd get up at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning and plow driveways before I went to work. And as soon as I got done, I'd come home and finish plowing driveways.
"And so sometimes, you know, operating for several days on four or five hours of sleep a night and running between here and Montpelier, because the pay down there didn't keep up with all my costs ... So I had to keep my business running. In my business, in stonework and excavation, I have to make a living for the whole year in the construction season, because you can't do it in the winter. And when I was campaigning, I was taking time off from my business.
"So there are a ton of folks, I think that are my age and in small businesses, that I think would be super legislators, that won't even consider it, because they won't consider taking the pay hit, which is part of why you have so many people that are retired or have some sort of financial security, whether they moved here from somewhere else where they made good money, or they have a spouse that has a high-paying job or something like that. But it's really tough to justify the time. It really is a community service."John Rodgers, West Glover
"So there are a ton of folks, I think that are my age and in small businesses, that I think would be super legislators, that won't even consider it, because they won't consider taking the pay hit, which is part of why you have so many people that are retired or have some sort of financial security, whether they moved here from somewhere else where they made good money, or they have a spouse that has a high-paying job or something like that. But it's really tough to justify the time. It really is a community service.
"And I have had conversations with people who say, ‘Oh, we should make it like New York State and pay, you know, $50,000 or $70,000 here.’ And I don't know if that's the answer either, because you don't want people doing it because it's a good job. Those aren't the right people either.
"And so there's this tug-of-war going on. And it's like, 'OK, do we want retired people and wealthy people doing it? Or do we want people doing it for the money?' And it's like, it's, it's got to be somewhere in-between. We want people who number one, represent the population of Vermont. And I don't think that the Legislature is really representative of the population of Vermont right now.
"And the gentrification of Vermont, especially with the surge in COVID refugees, and the housing cost, is injuring locals, because the grand list goes up, the taxes go up, your kid can't buy a house in the same area they grew up in because they can't afford it. Because so many out-of-staters are moving here and just paying whatever people are asking.
"So Vermont's had that issue for a long time, with a lot of our kids leaving because there doesn't seem to be the opportunity here. In most jobs that you're going to get in the Kingdom, you can't buy a nice house in the Kingdom with that income. And even if you can buy it, can you afford to pay the taxes and the upkeep on it?
"That's part of the problem with community, because you need those young folks growing up in the community that feel a connection to the community that want to volunteer and serve."
John drove me around the farm past the spot where his son's planning to build a house over the house he and his wife Brenda built in their 20s. And he talked about the differences he sees between the recent influx of people to Vermont from out of state and those who moved here in the 70s.
John: "Those folks came up here and they wanted to be like us. And you know, a lot of them worked for local farmers and learned how to farm and learned how to garden and you know, got taught about winter and how to get by and how to get your wood up and all these things, and a ton of the local farmers helped them learn this stuff. The difference now is a lot of the folks that are coming don't want to be like us. They want to make the Vermont they want."
Erica: "What about the people who wanted to come and wanted to have good relations or be in the community but didn't want to be like you?"
John: "Well, I don't care if they want to be like us or not. I guess what I'm getting at is, it's only recently that they've started attacking what I feel is our culture of independence — the folks like myself who have firearms and who hunt and fish and trap. And that's what really bothers me, is I don't care where you came from, you know, what your perspective is, if you can live and let live. What I have a problem with are the people who come here and want to take rights away from us that our families have had for generations, and our foundational rights in our culture.
"I've supported everyone's constitutional rights. I was probably the state rep in the most conservative district who voted in favor of marriage equality. And I actually lost my seat the year after that. But just live and let live. I don't care what race, creed, color, religion a person is, if they're a good person, then they're fine in my book, but don't try to take other people's rights away just because you don't value them. I guess that's what the bottom line is.
"[I]t's only recently that they've started attacking what I feel is our culture of independence — the folks like myself who have firearms and who hunt and fish and trap. And that's what really bothers me, is I don't care where you came from, you know, what your perspective is, if you can live and let live. What I have a problem with are the people who come here and want to take rights away from us that our families have had for generations, and our foundational rights in our culture."John Rodgers, West Glover
it's only recently that they've started attacking what I feel is our culture of independence — the folks like myself who have firearms and who hunt and fish and trap. And that's what really bothers me, is I don't care where you came from, you know, what your perspective is, if you can live and let live. What I have a problem with are the people who come here and want to take rights away from us that our families have had for generations, and our foundational rights in our culture.
"And, you know, I've seen some of the anti-hunters post, when there was this specific one on Channel 3's website, where a whole bunch of youth hunters and their turkeys had their photos posted. And one of the lead anti-hunters said, you know, something like, ‘future murderers in training’ or something like that. And it's just, it's just so disrespectful. And it wouldn't be tolerated if it was aimed at any other culture.
"So that's what makes me sad. And what makes me angry is the fact that I was in the Legislature for years preaching this stuff. And I had an awful lot of successes, but I didn't have feel like I had much success in convincing people who came from other places that this culture was important enough to hang on to."
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